One of my favorite Heinlein books is ‘Friday’. It usually gets short shrift from a certain quarter because of a gang rape scene in which the titular female character is raped and tortured but ‘deals with it’ and minimizes it’s impact on her. She is a trained assassin and soldier, and she simply compartmentalizes it as a normal risk of the trade, commenting on how it’s a rather unprofessional behavior by the other side. Its in Chapter Two, in case youre curious, and it doesn’t warrant throwing out the rest of the book.
Anyway…in the book, Friday is given the task of, basically, data mining to try and pinpoint when and where the calamitous event that will throw mankind into the dark ages will occur. As she reviews all her data sources, there is this:
“What are the marks of a sick culture? It is a bad sign when the people of a country stop identifying themselves with the country and start identifying with a group. A racial group. Or a religion. Or a language. Anything, as long as it isn’t the whole population. A very bad sign. Particularism. It was once considered a Spanish vice but any country can fall sick with it. Dominance of males over females seems to be one of the symptoms. Before a revolution can take place, the population must lose faith in both the police and the courts. High taxation is important and so is inflation of the currency and the ratio of the productive to those on the public payroll. But that’s old hat; everybody knows that a country is on the skids when its income and outgo get out of balance and stay that way – even though there are always endless attempts to wish it way by legislation. But I started looking for little signs and what some call silly-season symptoms. I want to mention one of the obvious symptoms: Violence. Muggings. Sniping. Arson. Bombing. Terrorism of any sort.”
Every author who lives long enough loses their collective crap late in life.
Jack Higgins, Louis L’Amour, all of them.
I put Friday, written about 5 years before his death, in that category with Heinlein, and consequently forgive him for it on that basis, but I still couldn’t be bothered to finish it, nor try.
None of his last five books lasted on my shelf long enough to gather dust.
I can point to many other authors, where clearly, they had long-since peaked, and were on the downhill slide to doddering senility, but their editors were already counting the book sales revenues.
(Crichton fans, for example, should run, not walk, away from any copy – even free – of Pirate Latitudes, which Crichton never submitted for publication, and which he himself knew was a piece of total poly-plagiarized mish-mash crap. It was only published by a greedy company after mining it from his file cabinet instead of burning it, after he was long dead, purely for the money, author’s legacy be damned.)
If you like Friday, good for you, because you’ll never have trouble finding a copy at used bookstores, as one of the most frequently discarded Heinlein oeuvres.
And the observation was purely a product of its time: the early 1980s.
I doubt if the Founders’ patriarchy damned them as surely as Heinlein concluded, and if he, proud Annapolis grad that he was, saw five minutes of the pussification of the military now under the emasculated matriarchy imposed on it by the beta-males and LGBTEIEIO queerodoxy, he’d likely be spewing lava, and strike that ill-chosen line about “dominance by men” like a scalded ape.
But as I said, senility will have its due.
Baby Brother and I could tell Mom had lost her marbles (a few months prior to her shuffling off the mortal coil) when she, hard-headed conservative product of the great Depression and WWII, was going on about the wonders of Obozo. And she knew she’d lost her mind too, but couldn’t muster the energy to care. Such mental gear-slippage frequently brings bliss.
That’s supposed to be what good editors are for, with authors: someone to gently say “Maybe it’s time you enjoyed your success on the beaches in the south of France, or took up painting, and put away the keyboard for good, my friend. Let someone else join the struggle.” Which is so much less harsh than “Robert, it’s time to start picking out an old folks’ warehouse for your doddering and declining years before death.”
Cultures may follow that same pattern as well, but the complaints about a declining culture can (and are) curmudgeonly applied to countries along their whole range of existence, which pretty well undoes that whole diagnosis.
All cultures are “sick”, as there is no perfection on this earth. But you only know they’re in terminal decline after the edifice is crumbling into dust, and in hindsight of that event.
On a long enough timeline, every day heralds the decline.
A line from a Python sketch comes to mind:
“Kilimanjaro’s a tricky, tricky climb. It’s up, up, up, until you reach the very top. And then it tends to slope away rather quickly…”
So too with civilizations.
Crichton plagiarised someone so what else is new? Just read ‘Jurassic Park’ then read Conan Doyle’s better classic ‘The Lost World.’ Not the first time his work looks a lot like a bad Conan Doyle.
This isn’t simply plagiarizing someone.
As an exception, you should go read Pirate Latitudes.
(You can probably find two copies for a buck at the Dollar Store.)
Then get back to us.
Just remember you were warned.
I have to disagree with Aesop on Friday.
Its a solid read though I’d be tempted to file it under cyberpunk as a genre not that the genre existed when RAH wrote it.
The rape scene is a bit squicky but Friday isn’t really human and is probably engineered for such an event so there is that.
Also Heinlein was outright wrong on particularism. Humans are tribal by nature thus society formed by multiple groups will always default to this model. Its a sign of nothing other than maybe a weakening of a central state which isn’t the sign of sick society.
I mean the the US achieved the peak of its powers (1969-1972) during a massive period of strife.
he also shares the Conservative view on economics as #1 thing, understandably since modernity is just a mirror of dialectal materialism seeing the material as what matters only differing in economic system
What is the sign is abnormal for that sexuality as the norm,very low fertility when resources are available , weak family structures, low religiosity by historical norms ,depression and malaise.
And yes by terms Afghanistan is a healthy culture as are many parts of Africa by those standards .Nowhere in the developed world, caveat Israel maybe, is
Just an author…. which can be said about many folks.
It’s not a stack of degree’s, or a prestigious position which
indicates a persons intelligence. It’s about knowledge, the ability to think
and evaluate, and reach logical conclusions. I’ll take a smart and thoughtful store clerk over an empty headed Piled Higher and Deeper any day of the week.
The best factor to evaluate someone on is how often they have been right in their opinion or conclusion. The more often they are right, the more often they will be right. My Dad had as much book learning (and teaching time) as anyone I ever met, and he’s the one who taught me such things as degrees are meaningless. As Dad said…. there’s no piece of paper you get for having common sense.
RAH was right a lot…. and awful lot.
Heinlein was a very observant person. His “Proverbs” in the Notebooks of Lazarus Long seems always apt like those of Soloman.
His famous quote “An armed society is a polite society” seems to be proven over and over by the results of allowing ugly behavior and any complaints are labeled Raciest or Homophobic or such. When bad behavior generates a prompt rebuttal the bad behavior tends to self-extinguish.
But he has a quote about that also “The only answer to someone saying it’s none of my business BUT, is to put a period on the But. Do not use excessive force doing so. Killing them will give you but a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about”.
I seem to remember that the Woodpile Report (Rest in Peace friend) often quoted Heinlein.
I wonder if the “Woke” have Canceled Heinlein yet?
“Dominance of males over females seems to be one of the symptoms.”
Really?
Things are better now, huh?
I guess ol’ H never saw that for the lie, that was.
It depends on your perspective of dominance. I suspect that the dominance he was thinking of is the type you see in Middle Eastern societies.
That would still be better than anything we have had since the 1900s.
Heinlein had very odd views on sexuality for his time . His libertine nature would fit in the current era pretty well .
Now in normal human societies, men are in fact dominant over women by virtue of physical strength and the necessities of security during pregnancy.
Seems to have some commonality with ” Unitended Consequences” by John Ross. Ross is pretty much a regular guy with an uncanny knack to examine and explains societal ills. Great book but hard to find. Copies on eBay will run from $500 to a thousand dollars.
The first time I read it it was a prepublication copy loaned to me by a friend. The one I have now was brand new and I bought it at the local library for a buck. Donated by an estate. It’s definitely worth reading. Brings many things into a place of clarity.
Unintended Consequences can be found on the Internet as a free file, without too much trouble. I supported the man directly by buying his book when new, twice, so I don’t feel bad about getting the e-book.
*
I liked Bob’s books, about a third of the time. Too many were juvenile. That said, he was better and contributed more than just as an author. The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, Friday, and Farnhams Freehold were my favorites.
WRT Friday the character, she also believes she is literally not human, and doesn’t have the rights of an actual human being. So that factors into the training and the abuse, iirc.
Heinlein was a pretty sharp guy, and a close observer of human nature. I think his list is pretty spot on, which is why my Costco trip yesterday resulted in another 50 pounds of meat waiting to be vac sealed and sent to freezer camp, and a couple of buckets being filled with staples.
I can’t afford to buy ammo or guns, but I can still afford food, and that is probably much more important to stack.
n
One point I’d take issue with is his assumption of “country” as a default identity. The modern idea of a nation-state is VERY new by historical standards – largely a product of the 19th century, I believe (which, I note, means that the Founding Fathers’ understanding of “country” probably differed pretty significantly from our own, something I’ve never seen discussed anywhere). Most societies throughout history have been composed of people whose primary identity was something other than nationality. That isn’t a sick society, that is a normal society.
Being a “product the 19th century” would be smack dab in the sweet spot for America to claim her place in the world. As a leader in innovation, industry and generally the best form of governance the world had or has seen. This continued through the 20th century – through two world wars and unprecedented economic growth. All because, at one moment in that time span, we gelled as one nation.
Imperfect? Damn straight – but not sucking as bad as other nations still puts us at the top of a very tall heap of failed societies.
Heinlein lived through a godly chunk of this era – so it’s easy to see how he came to this perspective.
BTW – all “normal” societies have also fallen – or will eventually.
Thanks for the chat! I appreciate your insight.
I’m 80, and after reading Aesop, now I know why nobody pays any attention to me.
Nothing wrong with being 80, Bob.
The key is knowing when your mind is starting to go off on a wander. At whatever age. And I’ve seen people who fried their liver at 40, and their mind was gone by 50.
The problem with losing your marbles is that you’re the only person who doesn’t know it. Because you’ve lost your marbles.
Another book with some cogent, relevant observations is John Ringo’s The Last Centurion. His ramblings about high trust versus low trust societies, commercial versus organic/boutique farming and a couple of other subjects is worth the read all by itself. The character of the evil US president being strangely reminiscent of Hillary is a bonus. Fun read, too.
I agree with Grey Fox. At the time of the US Civil War most people thought of their country as their state. Massive immigration at the time before and during the war brought many Irish, Germans, Italians and others here.
When offered the Command of all Union Forces by General Winfield Scott, Robert E Lee refused by saying ” I cannot draw my sword against my country. My country is Virginia and it is my home”.
That sense of country as far as a nation state began after the war and as the immigrants began to assimilate. They were required to learn English. Read and write and do math. They assimilated. Today. They resist assimilation. Only being required to sign a phony ballot in return for all the benefits the CPUAS/DNC will provide. Most will never have the desire to become US citizens.
watching the world around me I give us about a 50-50 chance of not FUBARing the USA into oblivion. Just the economics is enough. I forget who said it but it was along the lines of ‘…people flying airplanes into buildings won’t destroy a country, financial collapse will…’
As a country we already spend more than we take in. Billions to Covid, billions to the war machine, billions to welfare both corporate and residential. Just like the Colorado river our economy looks like it can only do one thing, run dry. When it does it will take decades to recover, if ever. Rome eventually went belly up and they lasted way longer than we will.
The rest of the world is seeing a 7% annual oil production decline rate. The US is seeing a 33% one ( thank you, SRS Rocco Report, if you need a reference ). You might want to rethink that 50/50. For reference, Mexico used to be one of our top oil imports until 2008. Today, they don’t export to anyone. And they were “only” at a 5-6% production decline.
Commander:
Particularism is a real problem. – BUT –
Preppers are not immune.
Religion, Politics, Economics and Social issues all can be used to put others down.
It is something we need to watch carefully.
Ceejay
History of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire and Decline and fall of the Third Reich are good places to start a evaluation. Additional looks at Chinese,Mongol, Ottoman,Persian empires gives some rough guidelines. The Foundation book series deals with a galactic empire fall and societal restart. Failure starts within(fish rots from head down), greed and corruption, disconnection of goals(internal strength to external force) are basic signs. Watching W Bush spew lines from his grandfathers favorite Austrian was a sure sign. A trained assassin being captured and raped/tortured and surviving sounds like a positive outcome as the alternative is much more grim.
I thought this response from ‘Boss’ in Friday was more spot on. “A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot.”
We are certainly there.