That tired old 9mm vs .45 debate still goes on in some forums, although now it is ‘9mm vs .40 vs .45’ with each devotee extolling the virtues of their particular caliber and denigrating other peoples choices.
Really, it’s not complicated. Here’s your decision flowchart:
Seems obvious to me, but………
CO Zero, excellent flow chart!!! Thanks for finally putting it to rest!! Doesn’t matter what caliber, if you are trained and can use it effectively you’re in the game!!
Whatever you’re comfortable carrying, from 22 to cannon.
That flow chart is awesome. I’m a firearms instructor for my department, can I use your chart in class? It’ll save me a lot of headaches and debating in circles.
Have at it.
I didn’t see “you can kiss your ass goodbye” anywhere on the chart…….
Frankie was an old dinosaur whose retirement piece was a Hi-Standard derringer in .22WMR.
I used to give him endless crap about it, telling him that he needed to nut up and get something that at the very least was centerfire.
Frankie was an excellent marksman and a pragmatist; his response was “I’ll just shoot ’em in the eye or I’ll screw it into their ear.”
One day (middle 1990’s) he came into my office, took off his coat and I noticed he was carrying an ancient Chiefs Special and TWO speedloaders.
Me: So….ah, Frankie…whats with the upgrade?
Frankie: Robbie, I went into a bodega to get a deck of smokes and these three jigs were robbing the place!
Me: No shit! What’d you do?
Frankie: I pulled my piece, backed out before hey saw me and phoned it in from the payphone outside.
And he never carried that Hi-Standard again.
Caliber is important, but so is having enough of them.
357Sig
Overpriced!!
Not only is it over priced but it significantly increases wear on the pistols that shoot it. I actually evaluated using that caliber for my peeps standard because some local and state police agencies use it around here, and they even sell it at the wally world. However when you compare it to the other more common calibers the increased total cost of ownership for standardization with .357 Sig just didnt make sense to me for a largely theoretical increase in performance.
But hey if you’ve got alot of cheddar just sitting around then go for it.
The GF carries a 9 mil (I’m a .40 user) but a well aimed .380 loaded w PDX type ammo will also do the job…
Regards
And with one flowchart, he undid the last 40 years of Guns&Ammo, Guns, Gun Digest, twenty-seven lesser rags, two FBI weapons selection tests, and the last three military attempts to find a new standard service pistol…
What can i say…I’m an ‘ideas’ guy.
Love the flow chart. I was big on the caliber debate for a while. Then I realized if I have to shoot a badguy I’m going to shoot him until he stops moving. Don’t care if it’s a 9mm, or .45. don’t care if it takes me a full magazine either. Which beats the .223 vs .308 debate all to hell too.
I’ve long been a proponent of “*any* gun is better than no gun.”
There have been a lot of people who bought “enough gun”, then left it at home or in the car because it was a hassle, and “I’m not going any place dangerous.”
Which is why I carry concealed + two extra magazines, everywhere. One never knows.
“I’d rather have it, and not need it, then need it, and not have it.”
Hit what you shoot at–
Means more than caliber–
Yep. +1 on the flowchart.
Shot placement beats caliber every single time. Mossad still carry 22’s.
Bipeds are weak creatures and almost anything will take them down if you are a good shot.
Bears on the other hand need more persuasion.
”Mossad” “carries”. What does this even mean? Are we supposed to treat Mossad like royalty?
A lot of security services still carry 22’s.
“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” – Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Well done, Commander Zero. Well done.
As I’ve aged, I find myself grateful that .45ACP is easier to load in magazines then 9mm Para. Especially if the magazine is double stack. My idea of a perfect EDC is the Glock 30 with a spare loaded magazine – if you can’t get it done with that much firepower, then you need way more practice.
I don’t know… I watched the latest training film from John Wick, and every bad guy required multiple 9mm hits to go down.
The one guy shot with a .45? DRT…..
/sarc
The best caliber to carry is something you are proficient with. Personally I prefer the one shot stopping power of a .45ACP. Years ago in another life I started out with a 9mm. After reading many after action reports of officer involved shootings I changed my mind in a hurry. This was about the time many law enforcement agencies were looking seriously at the 9mm as their sidearm. Autos were more reliable by that time and the different depts wanted to be PC by getting away from magnum calibers.
It was also at this time that the new auto safety glass appeared. This had tempered glass over a sheet of polycarbonite or Lexan with another sheet of tempered glass on the backside. The result was the 9mm FMJ bullets bounced off the windshield of perp driven cars.
Stopping power on attackers high on PCP was also questionable.
That’s wen I looked for something heavier. A team mate suggested that I might want to look at something like he was carrying. He had a Colt Combat Commander in 45ACP.
I tried it and was sold. Soon my own Commander was riding in a nice holster in my right arm pit.
My gunfight distance was the width of a car or truck front seat. At that distance the chance of coming out on top relied on who was faster and had the heavier hitting power.
The 45ACP isn’t for everyone. And not suited to every situation. But then what is?
For night work I like a shotgun. The new Mossberg Shockwave is a platform with real potential. Add a miniclip and load up with Mini buckshot or Mini slugs. In cold weather this creation can be carried under a coat.
In summation, the best gun is what fits your need is one that fits your hands. One you can shoot well and you can hit more than you miss. And don’t feel bad about finding something that fits in the hand and is comfortable even if you have to go through everything in the case. If it doesn’t fit you won’t benefit by owning a gun that hurts to shoot or just doesn’t hang right in the hand. If the caliber is to powerful many folks will flinch after two or three shots. That won’t do either.
People are different. Their needs are different. The way they hold or present the sights to the target differs as well.
I love old style Flint and caplock rifles. Always wanted to own a Lyman Great Plains rifle. That is until a fellow was selling a gently use one at a gun show. Price was right. The caliber was right being 54. Then I hefted the rifle. Then I found a problem. The cresant but plate doesn’t fit my shoulder. I have tried other rifles from the Pennsylvania school and the cresant but plates just don’t work for me. The Virginia school works great. The flatter plate and the more military style butt stock work fine.
Personal preference is fine. But there are certain things other than just wanting something because it looks neat or is part of the current fad.
The other key is range time. When I started shooting pistols I was shooting fifty to a hundred rounds a day, every day for years. And that’s what led me to reloading and Mt Baldy cast bullets which I bought in 5000 round cases.
This is just my opinion on this subject. This is what works for me. Your needs mige differ. One last thing. Don’t be afraid to change out grips and other things on a pistol or other firearm. If it meets a need and helps you be more proficient the time and money is well spent.
My son came back from Iraq with a low regard for the 9 mm. Of course, the military is prohibited from using anything other than FMJ bullets by the Hague Conference of 1899. When he purchased a pistol, given that he lives in California, he purchased a Glock .45 ACP. An additional reason for this was because of the 10 round limitation on magazines. He said he wanted to put the biggest hole he could in his target if he needed to use it in self-defense.
I was trained in the Marine Corps on the M1911, so I was inclined from the beginning to use the .45 ACP. Yet, it is hardly what you call a “man stopper.” The .45 ACP cartridge was adopted because the Army’s .38 caliber revolver cartridge was deemed to be inadequate during the Philippine Insurrection. That the Army wanted a “man stopper” was repeated in hundreds of articles in gun magazines about the switch from .38 caliber revolvers to .45 ACP M1911 semi-automatics. What the articles usually failed to mention was that the .45 ACP wasn’t a man stopper either, yet the legend of the .45 ACP continued.
What dramatically changed the shooting world’s view of the 9 mm. was the advent of +P and +P+ ammunition. If you check, you will see that this ammunition delivers as much or more foot pounds of energy than .45 ACP. If the .45 ACP actually is a “man stopper,” then it follows that good 9 mm. ammunition is, too.
Jeff Cooper dismissed the 9 mm. as a “minor caliber.” Without going back and checking, I expect that Mel Tappan did not say flattering things about it. The world has changed since then, and the 9 mm. dominates the market today.
As the “old school” guys march toward Valhalla, I expect that this trend will gather momentum.
It appears from what I’ve read that when you get into an apples-vs-apples comparison of most 9/40/45 the effectiveness of the cartridge (as determined by such dramatics as the famous ‘one shot stop’) the difference between cartridges is a niggling difference of only a few percentage points. That is to say, the result from a 9mm Gold Dot vs a .40 Gold Dot vs. a .45 Gold Dot is virtually identical.
Excellent flow chart! Col. Cooper would be proud! First rule of a gun fight.. Have a Gun! Caliber is all about personal bias, I trust any caliber if the gun I am shooting shoots better than I do. I read somewhere that a hit with a .22 is better than 6 misses with a .44. In my military days we said “one man, one kit”. Train with what you have. Learn your gun and limitations (yours and the guns) spend money on ammo and perhaps not buy that cool new toy(Sacrilege!!) Comd Zero, great simple illustration. So how are you at politics? TTFN