18 thoughts on “Weekend rambling”

1. This is my issue with the ‘gun culture’ despite how far it has evolved in the last few years. Prior to widespread CCW, the only people likely to admit to carrying regularly were (ex)LEO, private detectives and Soldier of Fortune types. And the writing reflected that. The self defense mindset and doctrine was developed by those sorts of guys, based on being a SOLO male, reasonably fit, and trained for violence and by profession or inclination being in places where they were likely to know they’d encounter bad guys.

   Contrast that with the (ever more) typical CHL holder today- moms, dads, ordinary joes, who are very unlikely to be familiar with or trained to violence, who are much more likely to be with family, even young kids or babes in arms, and who are not someplace where the hoary advice “just don’t be there” applies.

   How many defensive trainers are teaching movement or shooting with one hand, because the other is holding your 9 year old behind you, or you’ve scooped up your 4 year old and are shielding her with your body as you shoot back?

   How many will work with a 40 pound backpack slung over one shoulder, with legs wrapped around their waist, interfering with the “draw cycle”? (if you need two hands to draw your weapon, I’d argue that you are doing it wrong.)

   Two hands pressed out in an isosceles triangle, squared off to the target is great technique when alone, AND wearing armor, otherwise you are just pointing your center of mass at the ARMED AND ANGRY shooter.

   The one case I can think of involving a nationally known trainer, he walked out of a store into a stickup, and threw his coffee at the guy and never drew his weapon.

   Fads and techniques seem to pass around the ‘gunnie’ community like a cough at a day care, and with as little thought.

   Typical self defense, and defensive gun use, has changed- and the culture and training to support it need to change too.

   nick

   • Gunwriter, not trainer. IIRC, he did draw after the coffee toss, but by the time he got his Beretta .25 out of his pocket holster, the BG was gone.

     To some extent, gunwriters/trainers are going to have similar statistics to the rest of the population. Mostly brandishing or drawing, and seldom actually shooting. I have read some stories where some of them were present during gunplay, but didn’t need to get involved themselves. There are a few u-tube videos where a person involved is labeled a firearms trainer, but I haven’t seen any with a nationally recognized name (well, one I would know).

     Tam had a story on her blog (years ago) about some guy charging after her as she entered her home. IIRC, she got to the middle of the room, spun around and bounced her gun muzzle off the guy’s chest to drive him back, but she didn’t shoot him. He then bailed when he realized she was armed. Would have been justified, but she didn’t feel it was necessary to shoot him.

     I do wonder if he continued to look for similar situations to attack women.

   • “Shielding someone with your body” doesn’t work. Against 9mm or .40 FMJ, the human body is concealment, not cover.

     A good, well thought out curriculum of the type you reference would be “Contextual Handgun: The Armed Parent/Guardian”.

     https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2016/06/contextual-handgun-armed-parentguardian.html

     • Thanks for the link Tam.

       As to shielding, just cuz it doesn’t work every single time, against every possible attacker, doesn’t mean I’m not gonna be doing it. Because the other alternative is using my baby girl as a shield for me, which isn’t going to happen. (I can turn my body so she’s away from, or toward the threat, and yep, I have planned to turn away. I’m planning to shoot the threat until he stops being a threat, not hope my body soaks up all his lead before it gets to my kid.) And again, real life says it works at least some of the time, which is better than never- ask the woman who’s fiance died shielding her in the theatre in Aurora if it works.

       Putting her down is also a non-starter, as they will chase after you if you leave or move, or try to look around you to see what the excitement is all about. Either way, you need one hand to manage the child. And that means being proficient at one handed shooting, while in a bad stance or no stance. EVERYONE is training two handed techniques, even if one hand is just ‘clearing your cover garment’.

       And while I’ve never been IN the shootout, I’ve been within 100 yards of shootings too many times. Starting with working construction in Chicago, and ending with a grocery store parking lot in LA, several were in the sort of circumstances where “just don’t be there” was an option, but the first and last were during my normal daily activity. (and my involvement was to notice the shooting, and GTF out of Dodge.)

       The fact that someone as connected as you can only point to a new class from 2 years ago is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. (added- I see they had one class this year) 99% of the training I’ve looked at was aimed at singles acting alone, and never with the hindrance of screaming children or the weight of them hanging from your neck.

       The same way that ham radio (another “club” with limited membership and a huge body of tradition and received wisdom) changed with all the preppers getting licensed who didn’t give a fig about most of the culture but just wanted to communicate (the original goal); gun culture needs to change in the face changing ownership patterns. Sally doesn’t care about gun magazines, which gun is polished or ported, or any the things that writers have traditionally written about. She just wants to survive the next encounter with her abusive ex. John doesn’t care what the armed forces of Belgium are carrying, nor does he care about hunting, or what is coming from S&W. He cares about defending himself, his loved ones, and his home from attackers (defense, not fetishism). Preppers buy ham gear to communicate, not join the ham culture, and most of the people I talk to have purchased and carry to defend themselves and others, not to join the ‘gun culture’. Converting those people to our culture(s) is an added bonus, but not a requirement.

       Long way round, I think there needs to be a shift in thinking within the ‘gun culture’ to recognize that the current methods and dogma (sorry, doctrine) are not necessarily aligned with the needs of the people who are arming themselves. There has been significant change already. How many trainers in the past had NO military or LEO experience? How many can you name now? So things are improving in my estimation.

       The training needs of the armed civilian are much different from .mil or LEO, the support structures are different, and the aftermath management is EXTREMELY different. Yet most trainers I’ve met have emphasized their .mil or LEO training, or if civilian, have adopted the methods and attitudes of their .mil or LEO antecedents. There doesn’t seem to be much critical review of the current training paradigm for its usefulness or appropriateness for the VAST majority of CHL holders or the relatively new face of the armed citizen.

       nick

       • Welcome to the party, Nick! This has been a hot topic of discussion for years. 🙂

         In addition to the Citizens’ Defense Research class I mentioned, also seek out some of the classes offered by John Murphy of FPF Training, and the writings of Kathy Jackson at Cornered Cat.

         • LONG time fan of Cornered Cat! Her alternative approach to racking the slide is something I have bookmarked and refer people to fairly regularly. And to her other articles too. (and isn’t limatunes the same woman who had a really bad experience in a garage but lived to tell about it? I only ask because I’ve been aware of her for a long time, but didn’t know she progressed to instructor.)

           People may have been talking about it for a long time, but I don’t see much of a change in what’s offered locally or what’s on tv or the intarwebs… Michael Bane has some really down to earth scenarios in his shows, but given his own circumstances, they don’t address the family issues much. Heck, even in gunnie media you rarely see women at all, and they are the fastest growing segment of gun owners.

           I see change is happening, and culture shifts slowly, so I’m trying not to get discouraged. It sure would be nice to have something to point at that my wife would find interesting and valuable.

           n

2. I haven’t paid any attention to YouTube in quite a few years, but back when it was getting going there were quite a number of “the day had to draw my gun” stories from people posting gun content. And, frankly, most of them sounded idiotic and left me wondering if there was anything these people weren’t afraid of. As far as I remember no one ever fired a shot or got shot at.

   One YouTube Hero “brandished” on a couple of hoodrats in a neighborhood I lived in (he was from out of town). We’d get problems from time to time from visiting out of towners being freaked by being in an urban area with poor people and doing stupid stuff like running stops so they couldn’t get car jacked. Never mind that zero people got car jacked in that neighborhood and the people they endangered in the process. Or brandishing at local kids that were, at worst, trying to hustle $3.50 for a Mickeys Big Mouth.

   I like guns. Idiots and people who are afraid of the own shadows, not so much.

3. One thing I’ve never understood is why the firearms community has this fetish with “Well, has so-and-so ever shot anybody?” I really hope I never do. At the very least, there’s a lot of paperwork involved with shooting people, and even the most righteous incident of self defense is likely to be middlin’ expensive. (Even if no charges wind up being filed, you’re probably going to have prophylactically lawyered up anyway.)

   I’ve never been in anything you’d call a “shootout”, and it’s been more than twenty years since I’ve ever even felt threatened enough to pull a pistol on a dude. I try and live my life in such a way that I won’t ever have to again.

   • My interest isn’t from the perspective that someone who has/hasn’t actually been in a shooting situation is more/less qualified than someone else. Rather, I’m simply curious if there are any. I’ve spent fifteen years writing (somewhat) about preparedness but I’ve never been through any disaster that anyone would think of as ‘a survivalist situation’. My interest isn’t about establishing (or vetting) someone’s bona fides, but rather just a statistical curiosity. I’m a perfectly happy camper if I never have to crack open a can of freeze dried spaghetti because my life turns out to be disaster-free, and I’d be equally delighted if I never have to pull a gun out of a holster anywhere except the range.

4. John Daub from Stuff From Hsoi. He is also a trainer with KR Training outside of Austin TX. His defensive shooting experience is well documented and more likely what the average person would be likely to encounter compared to former LE or ex military. Give him a look.

   • Thanks for the info, although it took more than I thought to figure out why he might be important.

     I like the looks of two of the classes they offer, and they’re not out of range for me. No clear classes on toddler management though 🙂

     n

     • I’ve take several classes there with Karl Rehn. Costs for classes and 4 hour / half day classes are easier for me to swing than full 2-3 day courses. They pack a TON of classroom and range time in them. They recently ran an Armed Parent/Guardian class taught by Melody Lauer and John Johnston of CDR. It might come back around. They look to be a good resource for that type of class/info outside of KR Training as well.

       • Thank you for the kind words about KR Training.

         And yes… I HIGHLY recommend Melody & John’s class. There’s nothing else like it, and they truly put in a LOT of time, research, effort and care. If you want to know how to manage situations with children involved — it’s the best resource out there.

     • Well… I’m still trying to figure out why I might be important. 😉

       But if you have any questions about me, my incident, KR Training, or whatever… you’re welcome to drop me a line (or ask here and hopefully email notifications will kick in and I’ll be able to respond). 🙂

5. Here’s the link to Daub’s blog post on his experience: https://blog.hsoi.com/2016/01/06/regarding-the-events-of-january-5-2015/

6. nick,
   check out the ASP videos for situations involving children during shootouts.

   I recently saw one where an off-duty officer has his child in one arm, while he runs around shooting at multiple BG’s in a grocery? store. Near the end, I think he hands the kid off to his wife after she show up. At first, I was: Put the kid down!, but as you point out, you can’t control what they do or where they go if you do that. They become a major distraction and potential target or abductee, so you are forced to grit your teeth and work hard and fast to create a safe situation for your family members. Tough situation to be in.

   Lots of off-duty shootings show up on ASP videos, mostly from Brazil. Apparently, they are required to carry, and the BG’s will execute you if they discover you are a cop during a robbery.
   A number of female cops are shown doing a righteous job on robbers of various sorts.
   One thing that is clearly seen on most of the shooting videos is the vast majority of shooters on both sides of the law end up shooting with one hand only, even if the other hand is not occupied. The ones who use both hands are rare, and usually very good at it.
   Reloads are as rare as hens teeth. What you have in the gun is all you are going to use, 99.9+% of the time. Visible reloads seem to be administrative, after the fact actions. Training probably differs on this and other actions in various areas. Might be lack of extra mags, or ammo availability/restrictions, perhaps.

   • Being able to discretely draw your gun seems to be highly useful, as a lot of public robbery scenarios are solved by a hidden draw to counter-ambush the BG’s before they get around to you in the crowd of victims. Ripping velcro is counter-indicated in this case!

     A high percentage of shots are fired while one, or both, adversaries are moving. This looks like an area of training that needs attention. Not many trainers do “shoot on the move”. Mostly it seems people in motion tend to keep moving. Not many people move, stop to shoot, move again, etc, etc.

     • Yes! I’ve watched several of the thwarted robbery vids, and the discreet draw is present in many, just another argument against appendix carry [donning flame resistant suit].

       What I see in video of real life situations is not what I see being trained, which is my point from above. These people are attacked when they are vulnerable, with kids, hands full of groceries, unlocking a door, in a stairwell or confined space, and there is almost always a minefield of other people to avoid shooting. EVERYONE is moving, and many do the weird ‘hop, shoot, raise head for a look, shoot, hop, raise head’ movement…. arm extended towards target, head down (like they’re trying to cover their ears with their shoulders). MUCH rarer to see anyone upright, and if they are, they are more likely to be flat footed and shooting arm extended from shoulder than in a tactical stance.

       Most of them seem to be using a technique that was taught in the 80s called ‘point shooting’ or ‘instinctive’ shooting, iirc. Out of favor now, I guess, but very effective for the normal citizen as it leverages off of natural responses.

       I understand that a lot of this is difficult for a trainer, especially in a class setting where you are unsure of skill levels, but standing still behind a counter (unless you are a clerk) is about the last most likely way you’ll encounter a bad guy….

       n

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