For those those that don’t know the M-1 carbine was basically the replacement for the 45 colt 1911. Didn’t happen but it provided better stand-off range, etc than a 1911. No to sound sexist but I keep an M1 carbine for the wife. Could also be used for my younger kids if need be too. The pistol caliber carbine idea is nothing new in fact when you think about it historically “Cowboys” often matched their carbine saddle gun caliber with their revolver. Marlin also had their camp carbine that allowed someone to even use the same 9mm pistol magazine in the 9mm camp carbine. Can’t remember exactly what S&W it was 59 series perhaps. Somebody will know.
For most people, rifles offer more accuracy then handguns. There are some ocassions when you REALLY need accuracy. So for – crucial.
Good for training, eg 9mm AR for 556/308 AR platform.
That’s about it. In real SHTF I don’t care how much overpenetration I have. Sometimes you only get 1 shot and 50BMG isn’t overkill when your life is on the line.
In standard house construction, 9mm penetrates better than either 5.56 or 308. That is why the police are switching to 5.56, as it is safer for everyone other than your target.
We have been through this a couple of times. I am solidly in the bottom two picks. While living on the old family place ten miles from our southern border, I usually carried a Ruger Security Six. Feral dogs, feral hogs and such. Most what we called wetbacks (not a measure of a man, just here on his own from somewhere else) were polite, asking for water, food or sometimes work. Now things are different. One day walking to the back pasture I rounded a brush pile and came face to face (well he was about 40 feet away) with a guy with a AK. That was a really bad feeling. Never again. If I carry a long gun it will be rifle caliber with a good mag (meaning 30round). You absolutely must be able to match your opposite. If they have a rifle cal and you have that 9mm………good luck.
I like that i can run everything from rat shot to low power .38 ball, to 180gn hollow points through my .357 lever gun. .357 out of a rife has all the reach and power that i’m going to need most of the time and .38 fired out of a 20″ barrel is on the quieter side of things.
Plus, it’s a cowboy gun. Who doesn’t like cowboys? It’s fun and cheap to shoot and if things go sideways i’ll probably want to look like regular old folks and not a member of some sort of paramilitary. Carhart’s and a lever gun will blend in around here.
I love my lever gun in .44 mag.! Is it a battle rifle, no….. Can it drop most things with 4 legs or 2 in the eastern US, absolutely!
I would say that the 9mm carbine would not be your first choice in a SHTF situation. I have a CZ Scorpion EVO S3 and it is fun to shoot. Training with it is cheaper than shooting off .556/.223 ammo. Easier to reload also since you don’t have to trim cases like .223 brass. Plus the carbine just looks cool. It would be OK as an in house defense weapon. Not as much blast and flash as a rifle round but with the right ammo fairly effective.
I was a 9mm car in the takes s&w m&p mags, the biggest advantage I see in a pistol carbine is the ability to easily suppress and common (for me) already heavily stocked. I know a 300blkout is quiet but I have no desire to stock and kerp separate another caliber.
While the Shockwave on the rear of my AR pistol gets a side glance, that KPOS is a definate NFA no-no. Do I want one? Oh hells yes, but even having one would seem to be suspect to me. All a liar, er, lawyer needs to do is go to the Mako Group website (Official Dealer) and show the court the webpage containing the words, “KPOS PISTOL TO RIFLE CONVERSION KITS”. At around $500 for the rifle, ahem, PDW conversion plus the $200 stamp so you can use said item with your pistol of choice… I can build a nice AR “pistol” on an 80% lower with a brace.
It is so obvious an NFA object that even if you tell someone “yes I have it, but I’ve never used it”, “he said with a knowing wink, nudge, nudge, grin, grin, say no more squire.”
They actually have a US version that gets around the SBR stamp… it omits forward grip and stock…instead it has buffer tube and finger stop
I think there is always a place for pistol caliber carbines, its just a bit of a niche.
SMG’s are pistol caliber and are still widely issued, so that would seem to support the validity of the ballistic value of a pistol round out of a longer than pistol length barrel. true that one round usually has about 9 more close friends right behind it, but still.
I think if you were in the “pick one gun” category, a pistol caliber carbine probably isn’t the best choice. If however, you’re building a battery of guns, it might have a place for short range limited penetration tasks like killing small animals around the barn and such.
One nice thing about the pistol caliber carbine, particularly lever guns, is that they are a useful way to burn up questionable pistol ammo.
I like PCCs precisely because, for civilians/non-LEOs, there is no circumstance in which you will *legally* engage threats beyond 25 yards. After SHTF has run its course, we will ALL be held accountable (fair or not) for misdeads during the chaos.
In that context, it makes a lot of sense to have a carbine that shares mags & ammo with whatever is on you hip.
“there is no circumstance in which you will *legally* engage threats beyond 25 yards.” Have you ever heard of Charles Whitman? Try here
That sucker could not peep over the wall without taking fire from good ole boys with their deer rifles.
So if I decide to shoot at you from thirty yards, while you are in the open, you cannot defend yourself? Please don’t give your personal opinions on subjects you know nothing about. Go get training, you need it badly.
And YOU, sweet cheeks, will never legally return fire against a Charles Whitman. Irrespective of what a bada$$ you think you are, that’s not going to happen. You’d be very fortunate to survive the police response.
You may now return to your fantasy world.
I’m guessing you missed the TX incident a few years ago where a guy with a .357mag took out a goblin at ~165yds. Goblin was shooting at a cop. Think he hit him with 5 shots. I think Ayoob might have done an article/video on this shooting.
Speaking of Ayoob, he had a court case where a man was threatened by someone who informed him he was headed his way with intent to kill him. Man picked up a long gun and shot the goblin at 37yds when he saw he was holding a handgun. DA charged him with murder, saying that there was no threat from a snubbie at that distance. Ayoob videotaped himself with an identical gun putting 6 of 6 shots into a torso silhouette at 100yds. Case dismissed.
I recall where a desert state citizen witnessed a goblin kill a cop on the other side of an interstate. He grabbed a rifle from his truck’s rack and dropped the miscreant. IIRC, the other cops in that dept chipped in and bought him a new gun in thanks. ISTR that something similar has occurred a few times over the years.
I suspect that partly this is due to the lack of ambiguity in seeing a cop being attacked. Normally it’s pretty obvious what is going on, so people are more inclined to get involved.
Personal attacks usually indicate no defense. BTW, my former training officer and partner is now Chief Deputy of the county. A lot of friends still there. Still hold permanent Reserve LEO from the State of Texas. As I suggested you really need to get training. I got mine. Certainly no badass. But I served both Army and LEO. You?
I’m a retired military officer with plenty of training. But ‘training’ is not the question here. As a LEO you will be afforded special consideration by prosecutors, should you ever trade shots with a perp. But you already know that, right? Because you’re an experienced LEO, and you know what happens to any non-LEO who is involved in a shooting. Outside 25 yards? Forget about it. Legally, you’re toast.
I am curious, what situation arises where a threat is engaged at greater than 25 yards that is not legal for a non-cop, but is perfectly legal for cops. If the beyond-25-yards target is enough of a threat that a cop engages them , then aren’t they enough of a threat to be engaged by a non-cop?
How about the recent Las Vegas slaughter house?
It would have been illegal for the people in the crowd who were being shot at to return fire?
Multiple shooters in hotel windows with machinegunsand you are going to fire at muzzle flashes? You would be spending a long time in Clark county. If you got one of the perps walking through the crowd shooting people or shooting up the other casinos(2 other casinos on the strip were attacked at the same time),the sheriff or FBI would probably kill you for messing up the cover up. Most of Las Vegas is a gun free zone anyways
Tim:
Is there a reason that you you think the fools who CREATED SHTF will still be in control afterwards?
Not particularly. But that’s completely outside my control or influence. Maybe they’ll regain control. Maybe they won’t.
But eventually, *someone* or some group will rise as the new authority structure. Their mandate will be to restore order and punish ‘wrongdoing’.
Commander
Unfortunately I missed this poll.
I would like to ask, post-SHTF, why would you prefer a pistol calibre carbine to a smaller RIFLE calibre (5.56 or 5.45)?
I get the point of one calibre for carbine and pistol, but when will you be THAT far from your home/shelter….
I would imagine it depends on what you feel the particular scenario you anticipate it. I want something that has the streamlined logistics to create the smallest logistical footprint possible while still maintaining a level of practicality and utility. Additionally, this sort of ‘why would you…’ can quickly get into a reductio ad absurdum type situation..why would you get a 9mm carbine instead of a 5.56, why would you get a 5.56 instead of a .308, why would you get a .308 instead of a .300 Win, etc.
Commander:
A chance to learn the better options open to you is rarely wasted…
I really like my 1911/Thompson combo not interchangeable mags but I can control anything inside 150-200 yds with the knock down power of a 45. Plus the cool factor is off the chart when I pull her out and blast off a couple of mags or a drum(instant popularity). Just remember to sing”Roland the headless Thompson gunner” by Warren Zevon on Halloween.
For those those that don’t know the M-1 carbine was basically the replacement for the 45 colt 1911. Didn’t happen but it provided better stand-off range, etc than a 1911. No to sound sexist but I keep an M1 carbine for the wife. Could also be used for my younger kids if need be too. The pistol caliber carbine idea is nothing new in fact when you think about it historically “Cowboys” often matched their carbine saddle gun caliber with their revolver. Marlin also had their camp carbine that allowed someone to even use the same 9mm pistol magazine in the 9mm camp carbine. Can’t remember exactly what S&W it was 59 series perhaps. Somebody will know.
For most people, rifles offer more accuracy then handguns. There are some ocassions when you REALLY need accuracy. So for – crucial.
Good for training, eg 9mm AR for 556/308 AR platform.
That’s about it. In real SHTF I don’t care how much overpenetration I have. Sometimes you only get 1 shot and 50BMG isn’t overkill when your life is on the line.
In standard house construction, 9mm penetrates better than either 5.56 or 308. That is why the police are switching to 5.56, as it is safer for everyone other than your target.
We have been through this a couple of times. I am solidly in the bottom two picks. While living on the old family place ten miles from our southern border, I usually carried a Ruger Security Six. Feral dogs, feral hogs and such. Most what we called wetbacks (not a measure of a man, just here on his own from somewhere else) were polite, asking for water, food or sometimes work. Now things are different. One day walking to the back pasture I rounded a brush pile and came face to face (well he was about 40 feet away) with a guy with a AK. That was a really bad feeling. Never again. If I carry a long gun it will be rifle caliber with a good mag (meaning 30round). You absolutely must be able to match your opposite. If they have a rifle cal and you have that 9mm………good luck.
I like that i can run everything from rat shot to low power .38 ball, to 180gn hollow points through my .357 lever gun. .357 out of a rife has all the reach and power that i’m going to need most of the time and .38 fired out of a 20″ barrel is on the quieter side of things.
Plus, it’s a cowboy gun. Who doesn’t like cowboys? It’s fun and cheap to shoot and if things go sideways i’ll probably want to look like regular old folks and not a member of some sort of paramilitary. Carhart’s and a lever gun will blend in around here.
I love my lever gun in .44 mag.! Is it a battle rifle, no….. Can it drop most things with 4 legs or 2 in the eastern US, absolutely!
I would say that the 9mm carbine would not be your first choice in a SHTF situation. I have a CZ Scorpion EVO S3 and it is fun to shoot. Training with it is cheaper than shooting off .556/.223 ammo. Easier to reload also since you don’t have to trim cases like .223 brass. Plus the carbine just looks cool. It would be OK as an in house defense weapon. Not as much blast and flash as a rifle round but with the right ammo fairly effective.
I was a 9mm car in the takes s&w m&p mags, the biggest advantage I see in a pistol carbine is the ability to easily suppress and common (for me) already heavily stocked. I know a 300blkout is quiet but I have no desire to stock and kerp separate another caliber.
This – https://www.fab-defense.com/en/category-pistol-to-carbine-conversion-kit/id-206/pdw-conversion-kit-for-handgun.html
While the Shockwave on the rear of my AR pistol gets a side glance, that KPOS is a definate NFA no-no. Do I want one? Oh hells yes, but even having one would seem to be suspect to me. All a liar, er, lawyer needs to do is go to the Mako Group website (Official Dealer) and show the court the webpage containing the words, “KPOS PISTOL TO RIFLE CONVERSION KITS”. At around $500 for the rifle, ahem, PDW conversion plus the $200 stamp so you can use said item with your pistol of choice… I can build a nice AR “pistol” on an 80% lower with a brace.
It is so obvious an NFA object that even if you tell someone “yes I have it, but I’ve never used it”, “he said with a knowing wink, nudge, nudge, grin, grin, say no more squire.”
They actually have a US version that gets around the SBR stamp… it omits forward grip and stock…instead it has buffer tube and finger stop
I think there is always a place for pistol caliber carbines, its just a bit of a niche.
SMG’s are pistol caliber and are still widely issued, so that would seem to support the validity of the ballistic value of a pistol round out of a longer than pistol length barrel. true that one round usually has about 9 more close friends right behind it, but still.
I think if you were in the “pick one gun” category, a pistol caliber carbine probably isn’t the best choice. If however, you’re building a battery of guns, it might have a place for short range limited penetration tasks like killing small animals around the barn and such.
One nice thing about the pistol caliber carbine, particularly lever guns, is that they are a useful way to burn up questionable pistol ammo.
I like PCCs precisely because, for civilians/non-LEOs, there is no circumstance in which you will *legally* engage threats beyond 25 yards. After SHTF has run its course, we will ALL be held accountable (fair or not) for misdeads during the chaos.
In that context, it makes a lot of sense to have a carbine that shares mags & ammo with whatever is on you hip.
“there is no circumstance in which you will *legally* engage threats beyond 25 yards.” Have you ever heard of Charles Whitman? Try here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
That sucker could not peep over the wall without taking fire from good ole boys with their deer rifles.
So if I decide to shoot at you from thirty yards, while you are in the open, you cannot defend yourself? Please don’t give your personal opinions on subjects you know nothing about. Go get training, you need it badly.
And YOU, sweet cheeks, will never legally return fire against a Charles Whitman. Irrespective of what a bada$$ you think you are, that’s not going to happen. You’d be very fortunate to survive the police response.
You may now return to your fantasy world.
I’m guessing you missed the TX incident a few years ago where a guy with a .357mag took out a goblin at ~165yds. Goblin was shooting at a cop. Think he hit him with 5 shots. I think Ayoob might have done an article/video on this shooting.
Speaking of Ayoob, he had a court case where a man was threatened by someone who informed him he was headed his way with intent to kill him. Man picked up a long gun and shot the goblin at 37yds when he saw he was holding a handgun. DA charged him with murder, saying that there was no threat from a snubbie at that distance. Ayoob videotaped himself with an identical gun putting 6 of 6 shots into a torso silhouette at 100yds. Case dismissed.
I recall where a desert state citizen witnessed a goblin kill a cop on the other side of an interstate. He grabbed a rifle from his truck’s rack and dropped the miscreant. IIRC, the other cops in that dept chipped in and bought him a new gun in thanks. ISTR that something similar has occurred a few times over the years.
I suspect that partly this is due to the lack of ambiguity in seeing a cop being attacked. Normally it’s pretty obvious what is going on, so people are more inclined to get involved.
Personal attacks usually indicate no defense. BTW, my former training officer and partner is now Chief Deputy of the county. A lot of friends still there. Still hold permanent Reserve LEO from the State of Texas. As I suggested you really need to get training. I got mine. Certainly no badass. But I served both Army and LEO. You?
I’m a retired military officer with plenty of training. But ‘training’ is not the question here. As a LEO you will be afforded special consideration by prosecutors, should you ever trade shots with a perp. But you already know that, right? Because you’re an experienced LEO, and you know what happens to any non-LEO who is involved in a shooting. Outside 25 yards? Forget about it. Legally, you’re toast.
I am curious, what situation arises where a threat is engaged at greater than 25 yards that is not legal for a non-cop, but is perfectly legal for cops. If the beyond-25-yards target is enough of a threat that a cop engages them , then aren’t they enough of a threat to be engaged by a non-cop?
How about the recent Las Vegas slaughter house?
It would have been illegal for the people in the crowd who were being shot at to return fire?
Multiple shooters in hotel windows with machinegunsand you are going to fire at muzzle flashes? You would be spending a long time in Clark county. If you got one of the perps walking through the crowd shooting people or shooting up the other casinos(2 other casinos on the strip were attacked at the same time),the sheriff or FBI would probably kill you for messing up the cover up. Most of Las Vegas is a gun free zone anyways
Tim:
Is there a reason that you you think the fools who CREATED SHTF will still be in control afterwards?
Not particularly. But that’s completely outside my control or influence. Maybe they’ll regain control. Maybe they won’t.
But eventually, *someone* or some group will rise as the new authority structure. Their mandate will be to restore order and punish ‘wrongdoing’.
Commander
Unfortunately I missed this poll.
I would like to ask, post-SHTF, why would you prefer a pistol calibre carbine to a smaller RIFLE calibre (5.56 or 5.45)?
I get the point of one calibre for carbine and pistol, but when will you be THAT far from your home/shelter….
I would imagine it depends on what you feel the particular scenario you anticipate it. I want something that has the streamlined logistics to create the smallest logistical footprint possible while still maintaining a level of practicality and utility. Additionally, this sort of ‘why would you…’ can quickly get into a reductio ad absurdum type situation..why would you get a 9mm carbine instead of a 5.56, why would you get a 5.56 instead of a .308, why would you get a .308 instead of a .300 Win, etc.
Commander:
A chance to learn the better options open to you is rarely wasted…
I really like my 1911/Thompson combo not interchangeable mags but I can control anything inside 150-200 yds with the knock down power of a 45. Plus the cool factor is off the chart when I pull her out and blast off a couple of mags or a drum(instant popularity). Just remember to sing”Roland the headless Thompson gunner” by Warren Zevon on Halloween.