You know, some folks may have some ‘problems’ with Mormons but if you read this church bulletin, graciously provided by saintswife, you can see that these people seriously have their stuff together. Seriously.
I was going to pull out some highlights but, really, it would have just been reposting the whole article. These people really have a handle on their situation. Organization, command and control, nationwide resources, etc, etc. Gotta admire that sort of organizational discipline.
I don’t have problems with the contemporary Mormon faith. It is quite lovely. I’ve spent some time in SLC proper, and was charmed by the traditions and the organized rituals of faith.
I do, however, have problems with the fundamentalist mormons living in Colorodo City, AZ and the like.
That’s kind of like saying “I don’t have problems with Christians, but I do have problems with pentecostal snake handlers. That little group of freaks is not what anyone means when they say “Mormon” and they are not a part of the LDS church.
Yes, the Mormons have their shit together. One more argument for taking charity out of the hands of the government and giving it back to church and community where it belongs.
Plus then people might treat their neighbors better if they knew they’d have to count on them in a time of need.
I understand they have differing philosophies from the mainstream Mormon faith, which is precisely why I made THAT part of the comment seperate. They exist. It’s reality.
Jeeez.
Jeeez
*laughs* always a good ending to rational debate.
But why mention them at all is my point? You don’t see people mentioning the Nation of Islam when discussing the current issues with Islam — because NoI is not considered part of Islam by Muslims. Just like the FLDS church is not considered Mormon. It’s just a gratuitous slur tacked on for no good reason.
Cry me a river
You know, as someone who was raised Catholic, I take a hell of a lot of shit from many people, sane and non sane minded. You probably cannot even imagine.
It is not gratuitous. These people identify with the founders of the Mormon Church. The problems that exist in “the name of Joseph Smith” is something I would think the backers of the Mormon Church would want to do something to remedy.
Y’know, having just had a heart-to-heart talk yesterday with a fellow whose marriage is falling apart thanks to his Mormon upbringing… it’s not worth it.
Besides, there’s enough shit on the mainstream Mormons that it’s hardly necessary…
Oh, and I should mention. It is a complete disgrace how our government has overlooked the problems that exist in the welfare communities of Colorado City, AZ. For ANYONE who is interested, and since you brought that into the picture. Since the government is active in welfare, I wish they and the Mormon church would take this welfare case into their own hands.
Re: Cry me a river
You know, as someone who was raised Catholic, I take a hell of a lot of shit from many people, sane and non sane minded. You probably cannot even imagine.
Oh, can’t I? I too was raised Catholic. Arab Catholic, if you wanna talk stereotypes.
What the freak can the Mormon Church do about the FLDS Church? They’ve already excommunicated them. In the same way that any nutjob can call their church Christian or their little jihad sect Islamic, the FLDS can call itself Mormon….and the true LDS church is powerless to stop them.
On that we agree.
Word.
Re: Cry me a river
How is the TRUE AND REFORMED LDS church powerless to stop them?
I had the courtesy to sit through a SLC campus missonary tour and realize from that (and from what I’ve read about the beliefs of the fundies) the identification is really, if you want to talk “personal responsibility.”
I don’t know WHERE you think that I am talking stereotypes. I am stating facts. It has nothing to do with your Arab Catholic upbringing; I am talking about the politics and REALITY of the situation.
Yes, we can all live in bliss in lollypop land. Let’s just ignore it, indeed.
Re: Cry me a river
Well… let’s not start sucking each other’s dicks just yet, as the saying goes.
The ‘true’ LDS church—and I love that, who decides?—happens to control a good chunk of the police forces and political machinery of Utah and Arizona. If the FLDS were really such a stench in their god’s nostrils, you think they’d have found a way to shut down the FLDS operations on the border of those two states.
Did they? The fuck they did. The last Arizona governor who tried to crack down on them for child abuse and polygamy got chucked out of office for his troubles. The mainstream Mormons say one thing, but their votes tell the truth. Which is, there’s still a bunch of sympathy for those who hold to the ‘true’ Mormon faith circa 1870.
Would you explain, please?
Re: Cry me a river
The mainstream Mormons say one thing, but their votes tell the truth. Which is, there’s still a bunch of sympathy for those who hold to the ‘true’ Mormon faith circa 1870.
Indeed. It’s evolved into a pretty hypocritical argument, hasn’t it? The turning a blind eye and saying, “What the freak can the Mormon Church do about the FLDS Church? They’ve already excommunicated them.” Oh YES. And, POOF, they’re gone.
Keep your stores of stash and your organizational skills and just pretend the issue does not exist. Meanwhile, the fundies commit welfare fraud & horrific abuse and “true LDS” officials line their pockets. What a joke.
Mormons are very into peer pressure. And yes, I do mean to generalize.
If you don’t follow the good Mormon script exactly, they will interfere to the point where it becomes a serious stressor on a relationship. Mormon children are completely and utterly whipped and don’t have the slightest idea how to go out and form an independent, healthy relationship with another adult.
Re: Cry me a river
I don’t know WHERE you think that I am talking stereotypes. I am stating facts. It has nothing to do with your Arab Catholic upbringing; I am talking about the politics and REALITY of the situation.
Sorry I was unclear. I was referencing your “I take a lot of shit because I’m catholic” statement. All I meant was I probably take just as much. I didn’t meanto imply YOU were stereotyping anyone.
Re: Cry me a river
And that was me, anonymous for reasons unknown.
that’s definately true. i have several family members who are perfect examples of this. although i think it’s getting better with the newer generations, there’s still an ungodly amt of peer pressure.
Re: Cry me a river
we’re talking a matter of faith & religion here, not a matter of law. they’ve already been excommunicated. what exactly do you expect them to do? round up all of the FLDS in a train and ship them to some sort of concentration camp?
Re: Cry me a river
I dont think anyone is saying “poof, theyre gone”. Yes, a problem exsists.
The reality is that the mormon church “proper” really cant control/stop radical fundies. What is exactly, that you propose they do?
“Meanwhile, the fundies commit welfare fraud & horrific abuse and “true LDS” officials line their pockets. What a joke.”
So what is your solution?
On the flip side…
I have seen it happen too. In fact, I am mormon and a diviorcee. My relationship tanked. Yes, religion played into it, but it was going south anyway, and would have ended regardless.
I was lucky. My parents were both converts and although held us at high levels of expectectation, also encouraged us to make choices for ourselves, seperate of peer pressure. Really, that is a very mormon belief – to choose for oneself. I do think that gets lost in the culture that surrounds the faith – but the gospel itself is about making choices for oneself. Joseph Smith is a shining example of that.
I was rebelious, and although I was good and never “strayed” I flirted with disaster constantly. I am glad, because a lot of mormon kids I know went radically one direction of the other. I wouldnt say mormon children are whipped. Definitely put under more pressure than average – but a lot of them are also strong individuals. Sure, there are many who are as you said “completely and utterly whipped and don’t have the slightest idea how to go out and form an independent, healthy relationship with another adult.” But I wouldnt say its the standard.
Its a strenous religion that requires a lot from its members. I know I suffer stigma because I am young and divorced, and have no interest in having children. Because I could care less about enrichment night or relief society. And that is a strain – but for some of us, it is worth it. Because when you break it down, it isnt about the culture. It isnt about the people. Its about finding a path to better myself that makes sense. The Gospel, the soul of the LDS church, is why I stay. And its hard to do. But its absolutely worth it.
In addition, I want to add that Members of the LDS church are HUMAN.
It seems like many people now days “don’t have the slightest idea how to go out and form an independent, healthy relationship with another adult” regardless of religion. Have you seen what the divorce statistics are these days?
In addition, I will say I have never, in my 24 years (yes, I know I am young and there is still time) seen this happen –
“If you don’t follow the good Mormon script exactly, they will interfere to the point where it becomes a serious stressor on a relationship” I have never been to, witnessed, or heard of any of these interventions you mention. And in my experience, all I got from my family and church leadership when things went badly was love and support. I cant say the same is true of how other members treated me, but I did have acceptance and support.
Re: Cry me a river
Apples and Oranges.
The original bust in 1953 was done when sex abuse and mysoginistic practices were if not accepted, then rarely talked about. The media coverage of the event was one of “Look at how the big, bad government is stomping all over the rights of these good, god-fearing, religious people. All they want to do is do marriage their way, according to their belief, poor folks that they are.” There were photos in a national magazine, (I want to say Life, but it may have been Time or Newsweek) showing the screaming, crying wives and children being held back as their husbands were dragged off to jail. It wasn’t just the AZ voters who were outraged, it was much of the nation. They didn’t know about the sex abuse, the pressure, the abuse. None of that was being reported. It was a church vs. state issue, which is why the voters sided with the FLDS and chucked the governor out.
Fast forward a few years and there start to be escapees who begin to tell their tales. Over time, more and more women and children escape, and boys start getting kicked out for stupid reasons to “fix” the male/female ratio.
Still fearing the political implications of pursuing the issue, it’s largely ingored by local governments. Eventually, AZ governor Janet Napolitano, then the AZ attourney general, starts working with the UT attourney general to investigate the community. Arrests are rare, because it is so difficult to get the victims to testify. (Not only do they have the normal fear of facing the accused in court, but they have the added belief that they are going to burn in hell for doing so.)
Eventually, the attourneys general start making in roads in other areas where they don’t need to victims to testify. Things like misappropriation of government funds, welfare fruad, etc. Assets are frozen, government officials are sent in as observers, the government takes over control of the schools, as much as possible kids are informed that they can get out. Church leaders flee the country and the FLDS starts planning a move to Texas (which has begun, and is expected to eventually be complete).
Somewhere in there, the matter starts to get national attention again. Let me attest to the fact that the LDS community in Arizona is, as far as I have observed, wholly against what is going on in Colorado City and fully supports the efforts to get the kids, wives, and men who are under the thumb of the opressive RLDS leaders to a safe situation.
There is a very prominent group in the state made up of survivors of the community that go back to pick up girls who want out who have outright said they don’t want help from LDS members. So we do our own letter writing and offers of safe havens and support to the people who escape.
<"http://search.azcentral.com/search?sp-q=Colorado+City&sp-q-1=&sp-x-1=&sp-date-range=-1&sp-a=sp10021ba9&sp-f=ISO-8859-1&sp-g=&sp-s=0&sp-p=all">Links to articles in the AZ Republic about Colorado City.
Re: Cry me a river
Crap, well, I’m not fixing the link. Just click the url.
Re: Cry me a river
Line their pockets? Really? That’s interesting. Where did that come from?
If anything, they are working hard to prevent the FLDS leaders from lining their pockets with tax payer money.
You know what? Just see my comment below, because it’s pretty obvious you don’t have a complete picture of what you are talking about.
Dude, no joke. “Oh, they are breaking up… must be the Mormons.”
While I have known of parents or friends who have spoken with children or friends one-on-one about choices they are making, I have never known anyone to be ganged up on or bullied. It’s been out of concern, not confrontation about toeing the line. In fact, if you’ve read the pamphlets you’ve seen, you will see that they are designed to keep people loving and kind as they talk with the person about whatever, and not to get hot-headed and abusive. Why? Because it’s human nature to spazz when you see someone you love do something you think is self-destructive, no matter what that behavior might be. So the church put out information to chill people out if they want to have “the talk.”
And I can say this as a mormon who strayed a couple of times myself. And as someone who dated non-mormons. I was never bullied or pressured or whatever.
It amazes me what people come up with. I’m not saying that it’s never happened, but I don’t see any evidence that it’s happened more in the LDS church than in any other, yet people jump on the few stories they know about and figure it must be like that ALL THE TIME for ANY COUPLE OR INDIVIDUAL ANYWHERE.
Sorry, just doesn’t pan out. Yeah, there are idiots who push their views too far, but you see that everywhere.
Bigotry is bigotry, folks, and this thread it swimmin’ in it.
:::nods:::
Thank you.
Re: Cry me a river
For values of “train” = “paddy wagon” and “concentration camp” = “prison”, abso-fucking-lutely. Those FLDS people are committing crimes. When members of the LDS deliberately looks the other way, and even actively oppose those non-Mormons who do try to do something about it, actions speak loudest.
Totally. We’re a bunch of freaks.
You should really round us all up and kill us for daring to exercise our religious freedom.
Oh wait. They tried that already. Never mind.
That is how they are finally busting the people up there. Everyone can get behind welfare fraud. Very few of the cases up there are sex abuse related. They have been cracking down on them hard with their financial abuses, though.
They’re all just skipping over to TX, though, where they can start it all up again and live the fraud all over again while TX takes the time to build up a case. Wonder where they will go next.
Will it be your state? Or your state? Or YOURS!?
Re: Cry me a river
Political implications = losing the Mormon vote. It’s only in the last handful of years—since immigrants to Arizona like me have become more of a voting bloc—and the election of a lesbian woman as governor that anything is finally getting done.
The First Amendment guarantees your right to practice any mumbo-jumbo you like.
The First Amendment also guarantees my right to call it mumbo-jumbo.
I’ve noticed that superstitious folks of many flavors consider it ‘persecution’ when they’re not allowed to quash all criticism of their superstition. This just proves that they don’t know or have forgotten what real persecution is.
That was an attempt at humor.
I have yet to back down from criticism.
Re: Cry me a river
Perhaps I should have said “Still fearing the perceived political implications…”
It just illustrates how little the state leadership knows about the minds of their mormon constituents on this issue.
(Oh, and I voted for Napolitano, too.)
TX isn’t going to put up with them for long. As soon as they moved in it was all over the news. We like our guns and our religion, but no one wants another Waco *shudder*.
Many years ago, a close friend of mine was living in Salt Lake City. He’s not Mormon. He works in radio, and took a job at one of the stations in town.
He loved the area, and as you observe, he noticed all his Mormon neighbors faithfully (no pun intended) followed the practice of keeping a two-year supply of stores. He also observed the community practice that one person might have a two year supply of food, another a two year supply of fuel, another a two year supply of water, and so forth (the plan apparently was that they would share).
Lou didn’t take part in this type of storage because he wasn’t Mormon, but he does own an extensive collection of CDs, tapes and vinyl albums going back decades.
“I’m keeping a two-year supply of music” he quipped.
Jokes about marching people into concentration camps are the triple axel jumps of comedy: a stunt for experts, and even they have been known to crack ribs in the attempt.
Actually, I was refering to the various mob attacks against mormons in the mid 1800’s. But whichever floats your boat.
I have a two year supply of shedded pet fur.
Re: Cry me a river
Ha! Did you read and understand the thread? Or was it just waaay over your head?
I’m not going to rehash the whole thing when there are already 10+ comments that answer your questions.
Re: Cry me a river
If you have reading comprehension issues, I really don’t have the time in my life to help you.
Re: Cry me a river
Yeah, what said: If you don’t know, I’m not gonna’ tell you. Nyyyyah!
Re: Cry me a river
Meanwhile, the fundies commit welfare fraud & horrific abuse and “true LDS” officials line their pockets.
This says you think the LDS officials are lining their pockets.
If you meant to say that the LDS officials are lining the pockets of the FLDS church members, you should have said so. The problem is not my reading comprehension, but your ability to properly phrase a sentence.
A perfect example of what I was talking about before.
Poor widdle Mormons. How dare those big, bad mobs stand up to direct violations of the First Amendment? Don’t they know the First only applies to God’s Chosen?
A perfect excuse. And a common one.
“When we win the football game, it was all thanks to God.”
“When we lose the football game, it was our own human failings.”
You can’t claim credit for all the good (eg. preparedness) and just blame individuals for all the bad. Culture matters. Culture has an influence. Meddling parents are as much a part of Mormon culture as ice cream socials and food pantries.
No, it’s “My relationship is in trouble, and this is why.” Coming direct to me, from practicing Mormons. Oddly enough, as openly critical as I am of faith, we get along quite well. And when things get rough, I’m the one they come to for a supportive shoulder. Or maybe it’s not so odd. They know I’m not going to judge them for it.
I wasn’t even refering to the repercussions that came from that action. I could go into all the mob violence against the church that led up to the point where the mormons moved to Illinois. The Expositor was declared a public nuisance and ordered destroyed, yes. They were people who had been pushed to the limit repeatedly, and finally tried destroying a press in their attempts to be able to stay in one place and live their lives without being threatened, killed, or forced to move hundreds of miles. Destroy a press that was stirring up people to violence against them again vs. having to defend themselves from armed mobs yet again? Hmmm… people or a press… people or a press… tough call… I think I would have tried getting rid of the press, too, if it meant I might have to defend my family from yet another mob formed because of the slander being printed in the paper.
This wasn’t just some paper calling a group mean names. The event was the culmination of a lot of death, improper imprisonments, forced removals, and general living in fear.
And even if it wasn’t the culmination of all those things and they just wanted to get rid of the press of some people giving them a bad name, I fail to see how death is a proper form of retribution for destroying a printing press.
If they don’t have the cojones to tell the nosey whomevers to butt the hell out of their lives, that’s their own fault. It’s not church policy to nag or harass people into compliance, no matter what you say.
As I said before, there are always going to be idiots who think the best way to bring someone around is through unending pressure and coercion. You find that everywhere. Saying it’s a defining characteristic of the LDS church as a whole is bunk, no matter what your one experience may be.
Again, saying this as someone who has strayed, who has dated non-members, who is the child of a divorced couple, who has LDS friends who have been divorced, etc, etc, etc. You might have that one experience that shows us in poor light, but as a life-long member, I know a lot more mormons than you do, and thus know a lot more people who don’t fit the picture you have in your mind.
So you have an issue with any and all religions then, huh?
I have a 2 year supply of yarn. Stich’n’bitch is gonna be at my house at Armaggeddon. Bring the fur, we’ll spin it into more yarn if we run low!
Re: Cry me a river
I am still amazed by your insistance that members of the LDS church are looking the other way, when my experience as an Mormon is totally different. There is true outrage amung the congregations, and we are campaigning government just as hard as anyone else.
AGAIN: 1953 was 19freakin53. Many of the Mormon voters then were the children and grandchildren of polygamous couples who were NOT being sexually abused or kicked out of their homes or forced into the marriages. Their grandparents/parents were forced to move to Mexico, live in hiding, or go to prison for practicing an aspect of their religion. The issue at the time was one of religious freedom, something that Mormons in 1953 were still sensitive about. It was one of those “victimless crimes” in the minds of the voters then, because apparently, the participants were all willingly practicing polygamy.
It wasn’t until well after the raid that it came out that there were all the psycho abuses going on, yet the politicians were still pansies about pursing it.
And, yeah, if I were pressed, I would say I think that polygamy should be legal. Why? Why the hell not? Mormons aren’t the only religion or culture that have some form of religious belief involving polygamy. If we are so set on keeping government out of the bedroom, then why is the line drawn at polygamy? Also, let me say that a) I’m in the minority as far as I can tell as a mormon who would be ok with polygamy being legal and b) I have at least 2 people on my fl who would LOVE for polygamy to be legal and one is totally anti-organized religion and the other is wiccan.
That said, if my husband ever came home and introduced me to his second wife, I’d chop off his testicles, wish them a happy life, and then go visit a divorce lawyer. But, I fail to see why we would sanction gay marriage in this country, yet forbid people from living a polygamous union if they so choose. If we’re going to keep the government out of people’s family lives, then we need to be consistant.
THAT said, I also think that people need to live the laws of the land. The law says no polygamy, therefore, those people need to be busted. They should be busted for all the other crap, too, but polygamy shouldn’t be off the list because of fear of political repercussions. The political winds relating to this topic shifted a long time ago and the politicians have been dragging their feet.
Amazing idea.
I would love a tabby scarf.
I swear there are people who spin their dog hair and knit sweaters. Can you imagine getting stuck in the rain in one of those? *barf*
That’s rather nasty.
Ewwwe.
This country was founded by people who started a shooting war over such things. To this day there are a lot of people still would. Is it any wonder that Mormon priorities and the priorities of other Americans have clashed, and continue to clash?
They certainly bear some responsibility for their response, but they bear no responsibility for the fact that there’s something to respond to. And just because it’s not official church policy doesn’t mean it’s not part of common church culture.
No, actually, you don’t. Culture matters. There are meaningful differences between cultures that are not attributable to individuals alone. Hell, I come from a far stricter religious culture than Mormonism, which could be quite judgemental, but I never saw this kind of coercion until I moved to Mormon territory.
Oh, it’s more than one.
To the extent that they use that double standard, absolutely.
Re: Cry me a river
Actions speak loudest.
Mormons have had a long time to do something about this, and they aren’t and haven’t been exactly powerless in Utah and Arizona. If they had made it a priority, you can bet politicians would have acted. Yet for some reason it didn’t become an actionable issue until the last 2-3 years. I moved to Arizona in 1993, and the New Times and other papers were talking about Colorado City way back then. Nobody listened.
You can try to claim credit and jump on the bandwagon now, but the fact is, Mormons had decades of time, and plenty of power to act, and nothing got done.
Re: Cry me a river
OMG, ok, here goes, the rehash for those not paying attention.
The political situation of Mormons that is not widely published in mainstream media, from a lapsed Catholic who didn’t want to have this conversation in the first place
There are people of the “new and improved” Mormon Church or whatever term you want to use who have political clout. Politics is money. Politicians raise money from their constituencies to “line their pockets” so to speak. In order not to offend some members of the “new and improved” Mormon Church (within those constituencies), they continue to oversee policy which enables, what is known in contemporary society as: rape, false imprisonment, abuse, and financial gain from fiscal policy which allows welfare abuse (ie: stealing from the taxpayers to fund said rape, imprisonment, and overall abuse). This is a serious issue, as I am sure you can appreciate, which is why I as a taxpayer, read some of the aforementioned information that is not published in the mainstream media.
There are members of the “new and improved” Mormon church who are turning a blind eye to the above situation, when it is in their duty to use the money they receive to work toward policy to control the atrocities of the situation.
If your kid was a crack addict, for example, would you just remove him to a remote canyon and tell him to survive. This is the most basic analogy that I can draw for purposes of argument. It is not a “paradigm shift” that will create any change for those who are acting in the name of Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS church.
This, of course, is the present situation. Historical persecution felt at the hands of the government aside.
Again, this is not to say that sane practicing Mormon citizens of this country are not entitled to practice their faith and hold their personal beliefs…which is where this thread went, but was not what my original comment intentded at all. Faith is not something another person can dictate. However, what is being done in the name of Joseph Smith, like fundies of any stripe or religion, is distorted, and there are “new and improved” Mormon politicians (see explanation of “lining their pockets” above) in positions to create change, but they have resisted for fear of losing the Mormon vote in their constituencies, thus losing the dollars that essentially line the pockets of every politician. So, people who should be in prison for illegal activities continue to flourish in beautiful communites (behind which lie horrific abuse) with large homes, funded by our tax dollars. Leaders in the Mormon church line their pockets to keep their political positions. If “new and improved” citizens of Mormon society continue to allow their constituiencies to keep this cycle going, it is a lack of knowledge or desire to change an illegal situation that is “done in the name of Joseph Smith.”
Re: Cry me a river
I wasn’t looking for a re-hash. Really I was just making fun of you. Sorry I wasn’t more clear.
Re: Cry me a river
I don’t mind rehashing for people too small minded to understand, it’s really not a problem. No need for you to apologize.
EVERYONE uses double standards. Call it a perfect excuse if you want, I call it hummanity. Life. It exsists everywhere.
All I am saying is although we would like religion to be perfect, and seperate, it simply cant be.
Meddling parents? Mine arent. I know several LDS parents that arent – I am sorry to hear that that is all you have seen.
Culture does matter. No one is saying it doesnt. All we are saying is that for many of us LDS members, even those of us who are not what you might expect a mormon to be – we find that there is a truth to the faith that makes it worth putting up with the culture.
To be honest, its true that the LDS church has its own unique culture. But I have found several things in life that were far worse, had no beauty, and werent worth it. LDS culture, for good or bad, really isnt the ultimate point, or reason we choose to stay. Its there. I accept that. But there is so much good in the belief system itself to be ultimately swayed away.
I have left and come back, more than once, because I needed to KNOW why/wether it was worth it. Theres a lot of us that dont fit the mold you put forth.
oops.
that was me.
forgot to login…
Re: Cry me a river
Is it really necessary to be insulting?
I am not attacking you. I just wanted some clarification/more in depth breakdown. As far as I am concerned, thats a smart move – so that I better recognize and identify your point of view.
Re: Cry me a river
Sorry, I am feeling attacked for breaking this down. Some dumb ass played “baiting” games previously when he didn’t understand. Here’s my response, not to be insulting.
Xposted from some other tangent in this thread.
The political situation of Mormons that is not widely published in mainstream media, from a lapsed Catholic who didn’t want to have this conversation in the first place
There are people of the “new and improved” Mormon Church or whatever term you want to use who have political clout. Politics is money. Politicians raise money from their constituencies to “line their pockets” so to speak. In order not to offend some members of the “new and improved” Mormon Church (within those constituencies), they continue to oversee policy which enables, what is known in contemporary society as: rape, false imprisonment, abuse, and financial gain from fiscal policy which allows welfare abuse (ie: stealing from the taxpayers to fund said rape, imprisonment, and overall abuse). This is a serious issue, as I am sure you can appreciate, which is why I as a taxpayer, read some of the aforementioned information that is not published in the mainstream media.
There are members of the “new and improved” Mormon church who are turning a blind eye to the above situation, when it is in their duty to use the money they receive to work toward policy to control the atrocities of the situation.
If your kid was a crack addict, for example, would you just remove him to a remote canyon and tell him to survive. This is the most basic analogy that I can draw for purposes of argument. It is not a “paradigm shift” that will create any change for those who are acting in the name of Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS church.
This, of course, is the present situation. Historical persecution felt at the hands of the government aside.
Again, this is not to say that sane practicing Mormon citizens of this country are not entitled to practice their faith and hold their personal beliefs…which is where this thread went, but was not what my original comment intentded at all. Faith is not something another person can dictate. However, what is being done in the name of Joseph Smith, like fundies of any stripe or religion, is distorted, and there are “new and improved” Mormon politicians (see explanation of “lining their pockets” above) in positions to create change, but they have resisted for fear of losing the Mormon vote in their constituencies, thus losing the dollars that essentially line the pockets of every politician. So, people who should be in prison for illegal activities continue to flourish in beautiful communites (behind which lie horrific abuse) with large homes, funded by our tax dollars. Leaders in the Mormon church line their pockets to keep their political positions. If “new and improved” citizens of Mormon society continue to allow their constituiencies to keep this cycle going, it is a lack of knowledge or desire to change an illegal situation that is “done in the name of Joseph Smith.”
Re: Cry me a river
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. The phrasing of my sentence is precise.
Here’s my response to someone else (ie: cross posted from another tangent in this thread), which, as I said, is basically a rehash, more descriptive, of what has been said throughout this thread:
The political situation of Mormons that is not widely published in mainstream media, from a lapsed Catholic who didn’t want to have this conversation in the first place
There are people of the “new and improved” Mormon Church or whatever term you want to use who have political clout. Politics is money. Politicians raise money from their constituencies to “line their pockets” so to speak. In order not to offend some members of the “new and improved” Mormon Church (within those constituencies), they continue to oversee policy which enables, what is known in contemporary society as: rape, false imprisonment, abuse, and financial gain from fiscal policy which allows welfare abuse (ie: stealing from the taxpayers to fund said rape, imprisonment, and overall abuse). This is a serious issue, as I am sure you can appreciate, which is why I as a taxpayer, read some of the aforementioned information that is not published in the mainstream media.
There are members of the “new and improved” Mormon church who are turning a blind eye to the above situation, when it is in their duty to use the money they receive to work toward policy to control the atrocities of the situation.
If your kid was a crack addict, for example, would you just remove him to a remote canyon and tell him to survive. This is the most basic analogy that I can draw for purposes of argument. It is not a “paradigm shift” that will create any change for those who are acting in the name of Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS church.
This, of course, is the present situation. Historical persecution felt at the hands of the government aside.
Again, this is not to say that sane practicing Mormon citizens of this country are not entitled to practice their faith and hold their personal beliefs…which is where this thread went, but was not what my original comment intentded at all. Faith is not something another person can dictate. However, what is being done in the name of Joseph Smith, like fundies of any stripe or religion, is distorted, and there are “new and improved” Mormon politicians (see explanation of “lining their pockets” above) in positions to create change, but they have resisted for fear of losing the Mormon vote in their constituencies, thus losing the dollars that essentially line the pockets of every politician. So, people who should be in prison for illegal activities continue to flourish in beautiful communites (behind which lie horrific abuse) with large homes, funded by our tax dollars. Leaders in the Mormon church line their pockets to keep their political positions. If “new and improved” citizens of Mormon society continue to allow their constituiencies to keep this cycle going, it is a lack of knowledge or desire to change an illegal situation that is “done in the name of Joseph Smith.”
Dude. Look around. Priorities of America and priorities of all religions clash. Its not unique to the LDS church.
You could substitute the name Mormon in the below scentence with that of any religion and still find it valid.
“Is it any wonder that Mormon priorities and the priorities of other Americans have clashed, and continue to clash?”
All religions hold political controversy.
Re: Cry me a river
Oh, and so it’s perfectly clear, by “small-minded”, I am referring to you, not the people who are actually trying to understand the details on a deeper level.
I have a two year supply of shedded pet fur.
And ya know, the strangest things happen. Civilization collapses, suddenly there’s a critical need for shedded pet fur…you may end up becoming the salvation of the human race.
You can pack a wound with it and stop bleeding, you can weave it into clothing, you can serve it hot over rice, you can stuff a mattress or a turkey with it….
Re: Cry me a river
We have. We excommunicated them years ago. What more can we do, shoot them? The name of Joseph Smith isn’t copyrighted.
Re: Cry me a river
Read my statement further down that describes my feelings based on what is known and published in the non mainstream media.
No offense to those practicing within the LDS church.
Re: Cry me a river
First of all, while I have been known to pick up a copy of the New Times on occaision, I think it’s rather funny that you expect the mormon community in general to be getting their news from that source.
Secondly, from the Phoenix New Times/October 3, 2002 :
Colorado City was once called Short Creek. It became infamous in 1953 after Governor Howard Pyle ordered state police to arrest and jail all married men on charges of bigamy, adultery and rape. Pyle also ordered the National Guard to round up all the women and children and bring them to Phoenix, where they were held as wards of the state for two years.
Pyle’s action proved disastrous to his political future. Photographs of police pulling babies from their fathers’ arms inflamed public opposition to the raid. Prosecutors were unable to secure significant convictions because it was difficult to prove bigamy since most of the marriages were not legally recorded.
“You get killed quicker in government doing your duty than turning your back,” Pyle was quoted as saying at the time, according to a March 4, 2001, article in the Denver Post.
Pyle was defeated in the next election.
The hands-off policy continued during former attorney general and governor Bruce Babbitt’s era. In a 1986 Associated Press article, Babbitt defended the residents as hardworking, God-fearing people and said he did not want to delve into personal lives.
Arizona leaders have continued to turn a blind eye toward the polygamous town, even after Utah began to step up enforcement last year when Juab County attorney David Leavitt charged Tom Green with bigamy, welfare fraud and child rape. That state also authorized a statewide polygamy investigation, although no indictments have resulted.
“Despite its significant Mormon presence, Utah has gone well beyond Arizona in prosecuting polygamists,” the special investigations memo states.
Several state and county elected officials have been pressing Napolitano to conduct a criminal investigation into activities in Colorado City.
During that entire chunk of time from then until now when the main strem media finally picked up on the story, AZ was led by a Mormon governor for 1 year. (Evan Mecham–he was a real piece of work. I claim no affiliation with that man.) Arizona’s population is only 6% Mormon, despite what it might feel like to someone living here in the valley where most mormons live. (There are also many in the Showlow area.) 6% is hardly enough to make or break anyone’s election, as evidenced by the recent victory of Napolitano over the LDS challenger, Matt Salmon, in the last election. UTAH, with its much higher LDS population overall and in government, were the ones who took the initiative in this case.
So. Who’s been covering up? The mormon politicians or the non-mormons? The thing about cover-ups is that they hide the truth from the people. Who were the ones pressing for an investigation? The state and county elected officials–the offices that tend to be held by mormons. Can’t find info on who exactly it was, but chances are pretty good that they were LDs politicians given the number of them who hold office at that level these days.
In 1953, they were painted as god-fearing whatevers, Babbitt confirmed that in his statement in ’86. The mainstream media didn’t start covering it until the early ’00s from what I can tell. I can’t say that I’m surprised that no one was “jumping on the bandwagon” at that point–it was still a matter soley of religious freedom, and portrayed as something everyone was willingly involved in. As someone who heard about this story long before I moved here in ’01, any reference to the issue was “oh, look at these weirdos practicing polygamy.” Rarely were the abuses mentioned, and when they were, they were treated in the same light as any religious person who is found out to be a child molester–In that one instance, that religious person is a hypocrite, period. Nothing about how the abuse was a systematic and pervasive part of the community.
There’s no truth in Mormonism. It’s a humbug, start to finish. And without even the excuse of having the humbug buried in the mists of time, as with most other religions.
The culture is actually the only thing that has some value. There are good features of it, I will admit. But it’s also possible to find the same good things elsewhere, without having to tolerate the bad, or the humbug.
That’s very true. And I’ve said so on many occasions. But Mormonism is the topic of conversation right here.
Re: Cry me a river
Politicians don’t have to be Mormon to listen to Mormons. And 6% certainly is enough to swing elections. Very few elections are decided by a wider margin than that. So Utah was the first. Great. But that still doesn’t explain the em>decades in which they did nothing, and in which Arizona politicians were afraid of the Mormon vote to do anything.
Johnny-come-lately don’t absolve nobody of nothing. Bottom line is, they looked the other way until it simply wasn’t possible to do it anymore. Had the press not started to howl, had the political composition not changed, nothing would be happening. How do we know? Nothing did happen.