People throw the phrase ‘battle rifle’ or ‘battle carbine’ around and it always sounds a little…weird…to me. I suppose you may want to differentiate between youre hunting rifle that you knock down deer with and your ‘just in case’ FAL thats sitting in the closet, but ‘battle rifle’ always sounds kinda hokey. But..what else do you call it? Your ‘social rifle’? I usually just call it a ‘rifle’ and, maybe, depending on the context, ‘defensive rifle’. Anyway, Friend Of The Blog, Ryan at TSLRF, has been mulling a .308 defensive rifle. I threw my two cents in and suggested the PTR.
The PTR is a fairly accurate copy of the HK91. There are several copies of HK rifles out there, and there are a few ‘niche’ or ’boutique’ makers who make a very nice (and very expensive) product, but in terms of mass-market stuff its either Century or PTR. My feelings on Century is that it is the ballistic equivalent of treasure hunting at the sight of old outhouses….you might find a jewel once in a while, but most of the time what you find is crap. (Not withstanding their new milled AK which I may have to get two or three of.)
Personally, I rather like the FAL. But economically, if you’re wanting a .308 semiauto for the day the wheels fly of civilization, and you’re on a budget, you would be hard pressed to find a better value.
Eliminating the exotic stuff, here’s the rundown of whats available in .308 these days that fits the bill and isn’t some super-rare oddball thing (like a .308 Galil or Valmet): AR-10, FAL, PTR, M1A and maybe one of the AK-pattern .308s. I’m limiting this discussion to stuff based on platforms that have been around a while…the AR-10 being the newest. Stuff like the KelTec RFB or other gunny-come-lately need to be around for a while so we can see if they have legs or not.
Whats your budget for the gun and it’s necessary gear? Well, let’s say, mmmm, $1250. Let’s also not cheap out and go with the absolute cheapest [rifle/mag/etc] we can find. We want what works. So, while the Century FrankenFAL may be 1/2 the price of a DSA, it is not a contender because it’s simply a crapshoot in terms of its manufacture. LWRC and SIG don’t have anything for less than $1250 at the moment. S&W has some ‘bargain’ AR-10 rifles but nothing on Gunbroker is less than $1250, and while Remington makes one as well I’m holding off on any of their new stuff until they get their act together in terms of QC.
A basic rifle suitable for defensive use, not a target, match or hunting gun:
- SA M1a Standard, synthetic, green, $1250
- PTR 18 inch barrel, black, $900
- AR-10, Windham Weaponry – $1082
- DSA Voyager – $1125
Magazines? You’ll need a few. Assuming OEM or similar quality..no Tapco, no USA, no Korean/Chinese. Magpul is ok.
- AR-10, on average about $20 ea.
- PTR, $3 aluminum or $10 steel
- M1A, $15-$30 depending on source. OEM is about $30
- FAL surplus mags, $15..$20ish for newer
So, working within our arbitrary $1250 budget, and not counting mags that came with the gun, we get:
A Springfield Armory M1A with no extra mags
A PTR-91 with 116 extra mags
An AR-10 with 8~ mags
An FAL with 9~ mags
Or, to work it from another angle, a rifle and 30 mags would be:
M1A – $1700
PTR – $990
AR-10 – $1682
FAL – $1575
So, from a ‘bang for your buck’ standpoint the PTR seems to be at the top. But, that isn’t everything when it comes to these matters. What about reliability, ergonomics, modularity, etc, etc? The AR-10 platform is the newest and thus doesnt have the track record of the others, but it seems to be as reliable as most other piston designs. The PTR, while based on a design that has been extremely reliable, suffered a bit with the early guns. Newer PTR rifles (within the last couple years, and all “GI” models) have corrected the fault that caused rifles to choke on tar-sealed surplus ammo. So, assuming you have one of the rfiles made in the last couple years, it should be as reliable as any HK.
Ergonomics suck but, for me, theyre no more awkward than an AK. If you really wanna go nuts, you can have the receiver sent out for the paddle mag conversion to make it ‘true’ to a G3 but I find that the magazine release isn’t a big deal. The AR-10 wins, hands down, on ergonomics, by the way.
The PTR, with a railed handguard, is about as modular as any other gun. There are provisions for folding, tele, and regular stocks. New guns can be had with railed receivers, making optics much easier to mount, and the rifles are accurate enough that a scope really is worth the investment….the guns are capable of very fine accuracy.
Do they eat the brass? Not to the point you can’t reload it. Someday I’ll take the gun, one cartridge, and a loading press to the range and fire/reload the same case several times to prove it. Until the, though, believe me…you can reload the cases just fine.
So, Im not saying the PTR is the best rifle for anyone. For me, who wanted a .308 in a proven platform without breaking the bank, the PTR fit the bill nicely. From a logistics standpoint, it is at the top of the list with cheap mags and spare parts availability (for now). Some folks prefer the AR-10, some folks (including myself) prefer the FAL, but for the guy who wants a quality, reliable, semi-auto and it’s accessories at a reasonable price…well, its pretty hard to beat.
Agreed, and thanks for setting the price on the PTR at $900. I’ve got an extra sitting in the safe and have been thinking about selling it. I was wondering what the market was. My plan was to ask $1000 and throw in a bunch of Aluminium mags and a battle pack of Portuguese ammo.
Actually, the AR-10 pre-dates the Ar-15. It is what Stoner designed for the Military trials for the Army in the mid-50’s. Got beat out by the FAL, which wasn’t bought (not-invented-here thinking), which gave us the Billion Dollar M-14 as a result.
I seem to recall it was the fibre wrap lightweight barrel bursting that lowered the AR-10 in the end results. Production versions were sold with a normal barrel. Most went to African militaries.
Yes, the AR-10 does predate the AR-15, but the AR-15 has seen more actual service time and development than the AR-10..so while the AR-15 is newer than the AR-10, the AR-10 is less developed and tested than the AR-15.
I know the M16/M4 series has been shot/destroyed/improved over the span of 30-40 years… but given the AR-10 has been in production some 20 years and had some pretty serious use in the past 10 years, (With Knight Armament getting some rapid turn around on operator demands) you wouldn’t give a nod to the AR-10 based on the M110 standard?
Or was it omited due to the $1250 budget?
As for reloading… I can speak with knowledge about reloading HK-91 brass. It’s easy to recognize (with the flutes) and the dent about half way down the case wall. On AVERAGE commercial .308 brass will last through three reloadings before the case neck is ripped off or develops cracks to throw it in the in .44 Automag pile. Mil surp brass lasts an average of five reloadings before the same results based on an ’80s vintage -91 that still shoots today.
I don’t encourage often shooting of the -91 for this reason but the FAL will go all day without too much wear on the brass (case stretch, flex etc) as long as you don’t use soft points.
As always YMMV.
The $1250 limit is pretty arbitrary. It could have as easily been $1000 but that would have been a much shorter list, and $1500 would have probably riled the ‘cant afford a rifle on a working mans salary’ crowd. The AR-10 is getting some attention but you have to admit, it’s not as developed as the AR-15 series, and its ‘real world’ usage is very limited and specialized compared to the M16/M4 which is pretty much everywhere someone with a dogtag is. While the AR10 has been getting more use, and more development as a result of that use, it’s still suffering from at least one big issue: parts standardization…. it seems like no two manufacturers build them identically, nor use the same magazine. If I pull apart a Bushmaster M4gery its going to look just like the guts of a Colt M4gery. Or a DPMS.
While I love the ergo of the AR platform, and would genuinely think the Sig AR-10 piston gun might be close to perfect, I think its going to be a while longer before the AR-10 is as refined, developed, AND real-world tested as the M16 platform.
I’m not much impressed by Knights Arm. Around ’94, I was going to order two of his SR-25’s. The day I’m planning to call, I open a gun rag that has a test on it, and the tester bitches like hell about it. He’s left-handed, and it threw the brass into his face. No deflector! So I call and ask if this problem is being fixed. I’m told they’re working on it. The fix was an add-on deflector that mounted to the top rail. This is a joke, right? Turns out that was the same response that .mil gave Knights, when they offered it for the spec-ops people. So they had to re-do the upper receiver to make it like it should have been done to start with.
The decision that a deflector wasn’t necessary for any potential market was stupid. Or arrogant. Bad engineering, either way.
I was just running my Sig 716 with a buddy of mine that has a PTR. We were shooting 100 and 200 yards and running a dynamic range. 2 2 2 drills, cutting corners, 12,3 6 drills etc. The Sig smoked it and we are of equal capabilities. Neither had any stoppage/ftf. The AR platform is just more ergonomic. The pulse is smoother. That said I paid $1750 for the 716 a year ago. I will admit when I got a chance to shoot the the PTR I was surprised of the nice trigger pull and break and the cycling was a beast but smooth.
It fills heavier and points sluggish in comparison, but it wasn’t noticeable if you were watching just if you were the shooter. Next time out I’m going to time all of our drills with both and a POF 415 and a built 10.5″. I know the 10.5 will lay waste but I’m curious by how much.
Have a good one.
Armalite Defender series. Well under 1K and takes PMags. Your $1250 should get you gun+10 mags easy. This will get you the best ergonomics (it’s an AR), versatility and acurracy.
There is a reason the AR weapons platform is the most popular.
I agree. I have the GI and the PTR with wood furniture. Paired with German surplus scopes & mounts, I’m set for … good times and bad. They are solid & look it. I bought mine at CDNN for < $900.
Zero speaks the truth. He made me aware of the PTR-91 via this blog, and that was my first 7.62 “battle rifle”. Mine was one of the ones that choked on tar sealed ammo, but I was clueless enough to re-barrel it with one of the last HK barrels left on the market, completely by accident creating what turned out to be a bank-vault solid masterpiece. I love that rifle. I’ll hand it down to my grandchildren, and the huge cache of parts that will keep it running for their grandchildren. It was cheap to amass, and it’s still a great value for an end of the world, “no more parts from anywhere” rifle.
Hey discobobby,
Who did your re-barrel? I am in a similar situation. No HK barrel but, I have a solid replacement waiting in the wings.
I had Jeff Walters / Prusik USA (HKPRO member Ghilliebear2000)
http://www.prusikusa.com/ do it. Good people, this was back around 2009. I also hear really good things about http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/
One of those guys can help you for sure.
I have one of the first 100 PTR’s ever made and I love it. I’d love it more with a paddle mag release, but I’ll take what I can get. Still an awesome rifle. You don’t even want to know what I practically stole it for on Gunbroker a few years back with 22 magazines.
I am however getting very tempted by Palmetto State Armory’s new .308 AR’s. $850 for a new carbine length AR type that will take Pmags is very attractive. If the reviews show good quality, I may have to snag one.
What causes me to be wary of the .30 cal AR is the lack of standardization. Every maker seems to have their own take on what constitutes a properly built rifle. I’m actually more inclined to look at a gas piston AR as a result. I almost went for one of the Ruger SR762 rifles a couple of years ago. I still haven’t heard of any major downside to it. It’s not even that heavy.
A PTR though, has plenty of history and a very deep pool of standardized parts to go with it. I have one of the PTR’s that has the out of spec chamber. And I can’t have a rifle in this category that is finicky about ammo. It has to willingly shoot whatever I want to put through it. When I finally get mine re-barreled, I will send a Rheinmetall bolt carrier with it to be properly headspaced. I have about 120 mags that I got for next to nothing (in relative terms). Getting that barrel job done will be spendy. It’s really the only serious problem I have with the gun.
I love my Rugers sr10 and ar15, but the gun that the goverment will pry from my cold dead hands will be my FRANKEN FAL that I bought at a gun show for $500.00. If you are getting dents in your brass turn down your gas. There is a old manual that I seen years ago that said if your brass is flying in a certain direction, like foreward from where you shot from then you had too much gas going to the piston. I don’t know if this holds true for other piston guns but it works on my FAL, no more dents in my brass. I have a true Franken FAL it has both inch and metric parts in, it was put together by a fiend with his own three hands. It’s not suppose to work but it does.
It’s not that the chamber is out of spec, it is a target/match grade setup, that was designed for US market factory 308 ammo. Why they did this is unclear, but that is what I was told by the people at their booth at SHOT Show a few years back.
Putting that barrel in a service grade rifle makes no sense. I was told that they were changing it back to the original design, and only using that tight barrel on designated Target rifles. One of the ways to tell which one you are looking at is the match grade barrel has less flutes, IIRC. I think the size of the flutes is also different.
The last change that was done for the German Army version was a new lip welded around the rear of the ejection port. supposed to be more gentle on your brass. You can get the part from here:
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-G3-91-PTR-Shell-Deflector-Weld-On-9p12747.htm
The way I understand it, the problem was the number and the depth of the flutes. Doesn’t that make it non-milspec? The thing is really accurate as is but, I have a lot of WWB 7.62N and that is on the do not use list. The joke was “It’s chambered for American Eagle”.
The change in the flutes is only part of the dimensional changes they made for that target barrel, IIRC. IOW, no it is NOT mil-spec.
That bit of idiocy by management really hurt them. I’m guessing management. I wouldn’t expect the engineering dept to be able to make such an extensive change without someone higher signing off on it. Then again, it is possible that the parts dept decided that they were only going to order/stock one barrel type. It might be an in-house part, and the mil-spec is an outside purchase part.
No matter what the actual cause was, it is still the responsibility of management to get it right. A company always pays a price for stupidity.
This is just a wild guess, but I’d say that to cut the flutin to original HK spec required some extra-special equipment and rather than spend the money for that equipment they went with ‘close enough’. But thats just speculation. ALl that matters is that theyve realized the errors of their ways and I cant get an awesome .308 for less than a grand.
I have one of the Century rifles, seems a good one, but I have to ask, is getting punched in the cheek the norm for this style of rifle? Every time I go to the range with it I come back with a bruise. Never a problem with my M1s. Just askin’
Yup. The tradeoff for not having a gas system.
A locked blowback operated rifle, who da thunk it.
Well, I think its actually roller-delayed rather than roller-locked.
why not just buy a decent 9mm automatic for 1/2 the price of a .308 rifle and take it to the range and get squared away with using it and being accurate, then head down to turners and while picking up some extra clips, also buy their special priced Federal ammo 9mm for $399.00 for a thousand rounds, problem solved. If i want a home invasion weapon why would i buy one that is likely to go through the walls of my house and kill my neighbors 3 year old daughter next door? The only reason to have a .308 is for deer hunting, not home protection in case of “the end of the world”, just saying, thanks ray lowery
Why are you assuming that this post about the PTR has anything to do with home invasions? The reason I dont buy a decent 9mm automatic for half the price is because a decent 9mm at half the price won’t kill deer at 200 yards, hit man-sized targets at 300 yards, or penetrate light cover.
You’re assuming the purpose I want the PTR for is home invasions and clearly thats not the gist of it if you read the post.
I’ve got one of the “no tar” PTR’s (that I got after hearing CZ rave about his) and I find no issues with it. Yes my friends prefer my AR pattern rifles due to comfort but it’s hard to beat the PTR in term of price and logistics. Plus it eats wolf and brown bear with none of the issues I hear about with other .308 autos and steel cased lacquer coated Russian ammo. Of course I also hear about AR10S using the same ammo with no issues. YMMV.
I don’t normally reply to these and readily admit that I haven’t read all the replies.
I own a PTR-91. Overall GREAT weapon and very pleased. Except…it really really cares what type of ammo you feed it. Kinda scary when your amazingly accurate rifle blows the backs out of your primers. I’ve found that Hornady and other high end brands are no problem. Winchester is not good for the PTR-91. The PTR-91 also throws your brass 20-30′ away as a tangled mass of unusable brass. My PTR-91 is the “AA” series, apparently they are very precisely made with zero tolerance for slop.
I had the pleasure of shooting a M14 with synthetic stock. Amazing shooting gun, recoil is nothing compared to the PTR-91, brass remains solvent, and just as accurate as the PTR-91.
Selling a gun is like losing a piece of my soul (I’ve only sold 1 and am actively trying to get it back), however I would gladly sell the PTR-91 for a M14.
Read, Read, Read before spending $1k.