Interesting piece about the change in ‘gun culture’ in Israel.
First, welcome to the party.
This article is interesting because, while you and I might support the idea of the more people discreetly arming themselves against unforeseen violence, there’s a cultural difference clearly in evidence here that is worth noting.
Gozlan is unnerved by what he sees as inadequate oversight in the licensing process. “At the range, I saw people who had never held a gun in their life, barely hitting their targets. It’s frightening to think these people are now walking around with firearms.”
Catch that “inadequate oversight in the licensing process”? The article continues with concerns that, while no one is saying that the citizens shouldn’t be able to have guns, the possibility that they are ‘untrained’ or lacking in skill poses a, to them, legitimate concern.
This almost feels like a setup for a testing scheme. In this country, broadly speaking, if where you live requires a license you’re application is mostly theoretical…few places require you to go to the range and shoot a particular score to qualify. Some do, yes, but most do not. A right, predicated on a test, is not a right. And that’s the crux of what I’m getting at.
‘Reaonable” and ‘common sense’ regulations that support this sort of testing are backdoor schemes to restrict access and ownership. Let’s say a municipality or state wants to restrict firearms ownership and access. First thing you do is create a licensing scheme with requirements. Now, make it impossible to meet those requirements. For example, you may need eight hours of classroom time with a qualified instructor….and then you make the classrooms unavailable, set the qualifications for instructor to be unobtainable, and you have, by default, created a roadblock even though on paper you have a clearly instructed process to follow.
You can add all sorts of roadblocks…the licensing office is only open on every other Thursday for two hours, you have to apply in person, you need to bring documents that are awkward or difficult to obtain, funding reductions reduce staff available for processing forms, etc, etc. This isn’t just theory….in places like California and New York it’s business as usual.
I bring this up because people will read the article above and nod their heads sagely that, yes, everyone should have the right to own a gun but…there needs to be training an competency standards. And those standards, naturally, are set by people who have a keen interest in people not owning guns.
So, before anyone asks how you could possibly be against a “safety measure” like competency and handling exams, remember that these mechanisms are easily jiggered to promote making ownership of guns so onerous as to be impossible.
Should you have competency and skill in handling your boomtoys? Absolutely. You should regularly practice for safety and accuracy. Should it be a requirement administered by .gov, under .gov guidelines and rules, as a condition of ownership? Absolutely not.
Hopefully the Israelis will not fall for that trick.
Around 2000, I was offered a tenured professorship at a major hospital in Israel. I am Jewish, and read/speak/understand conversational Hebrew, at least well enough. At the time, there were procedures in place for ordinary Israelis to get the local equivalent of CCWs.
I was all set to do it, and inquired about getting a CCW – the hospital was in Be’er-Sheva in the Negev, and there was some pretty consistent low-level terrorism going on all the time. Having a firearm or two at home seemed a good thing.
Turns out there was no way at all they’d allow me to have a firearm, under any circumstances. The best I could do was join a shooting club, and use the clubs weapons at the clubs range. The government’s argument was that I did not understand Hebrew well enough (they didn’t bother testing, and we were conversing in Hebrew), didn’t understand the culture (people shooting at me? That’s culture I understand) and the risk of friendly fire was too great.
Sorry, that’s a non-starter for me.
after the War ended, my father was ordered to Austria for occupation. they had to march much of the way before they were moved by train, due to damage of the railroads.
during that march, they passed the Dachau concentration camp after ( it was liberated by then of course) but the cleanup of the dead were ongoing by both Jews and Germans.
their officer entered the camp to speak to the American officer in charge, my fathers group never entered, but he said the smell was almost suffocating. they moved on after 20 minutes or so.
after telling me this story, and having learned american history and reading about the concentration camps in 6th grade, i never understood why any person on the face of the earth, and in paticular Jewish people, wouldn’t own a firearm for protection, especially those who had no legal restriction of owning one.
In a cultural where terrorism is a real threat the idea that gun ownership should be strictly regulated can only cause unnecessary death and hardship. How many Israelis might have survived if they been able to protect themselves on October 7th? The government precluded this possibility. In America I would never allow the government to dictate the terms of my personal of family’s safety. We saw what the death jab did. Fortunately I and mine were able to avoid it. Who in their right mind would take a “vaccine” that was not proven and that the government had provided unlimited exemptions for the manufacturers? Sound like a safe bet? Not to me. I wonder how many millions will suffer in the next ten years from their acceptance of these DNA manipulated shots.
As for guns, where governments do not protect the people why would you depend on the government? Ask the people of South Africa, Mexico, Venezuela, Columbia, Argentina what it is like to be disarmed. Ask the people of London if crime has gone down. Its so bad the Brits are looking at banning knives. What next all sharp, pointy objects?
Do not forget they would have been killing IDF soldiers that were doing the slaughter of “civilians”
Didn’t the Israelis learn their lesson the first time? No guns = no freedom!
The Jewish people never learned from WW2. They keep supporting gun control and the very people who put them in the camps. Kinda like the blacks supporting Democrats and their enforcement arm (KKK).
Here’s how it worked in Canada, Prior to 1978 no license was required to own a firearm that was not restricted ie: handguns and machine guns. for those you needed a license. After 1978 you needed an FAC (firearms acquisition certificate). This was basically a back ground check by the RCMP and was good for 5 years. Cost was 10 dollars Cdn. Once that was in place a series of further restrictions on types of firearms and magazine capacities came out. Then they changed the FAC into the PAL, purchase and acquisition license, that required a handling course and test at your expense total cost about 200 dollars Cdn. It was also separated into a restricted and non restricted category. So to have a restricted rifle or pistol you had to take the restricted test. Once that was established then the general ban on owning what you already had began. Now the Liberal Government ( most of Canada’s gun laws were by the Liberals), are talking a buy back or confiscation of these “EVIL” guns. We in Canada have clearly not learned our lessons. Don’t sit idly by and do nothing or you will loose your guns and freedoms. TTFN
Maybe you guys can become the 51’st state and be able to own guns again?
Backcountry Bum
When I lived in Canada I had a PAL (Restricted, too).
The class was ridiculous. Canadians have an absolute fetish about staring down the barrels of firearms, too. Cross a fence? Clear the weapon – visually check the bore to ensure it’s clear. Climb over the fence. Check the bore again to make sure it’s still clear. Load up.
Get to the camp/car/whatever? Clear, stare, etc.
But, the weapons you can have, even then, with a restricted PAL? My 4″ .357 revolver (not exactly high on the concealability list) was forbidden, since the barrel had to be “longer than 4”. A threaded (hence longer) barrel on my Glock? Nope! A threaded barrel makes it a “Silencer Part” and those are prohibited.
There are parts of Canada that maybe can become states – Alberta, Saskatchewan (have to rename it), Manitoba, sure. BC? Tough call. Might have to make Vancouver part of greater Seattle. Ontario and Quebec? Only the northern parts of the provinces (most of the people in Canada live within 100 freedom miles of the US Border now), keep the resources – especially the James River hydro projects. Quebec south? Hell no. Toronto? Target practice for ICBMs, Ottawa and Hull (technically Hull is in Quebec)….My wife worked for the national government in Hull…When I’d pick her up, while waiting I’d use my mad tactical nuclear delivery skills and practice how I’d cleanse that urban blight.
The Maritimes? Meh. New Brunswick? One language, baby! ENGLISH! (New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province). Oh, as far as language generally? Again, English.
Now, the northern parts: Yukon, sure. Nunavut? We’ll make it a territory. The first nations? Learn to support yourselves.
Cool your jets there Walter Mitty. Pretty sure vp elect trump was only joking.
I was arguing for this WAY before Trump.
thinkin my response sailed right over your head
It’s President Trump not VP Trump.
The Israelis have already “fallen for” stupid gun control arguments, despite not learning that lesson with hundreds of examples in their national and cultural history prior to 1948, and now with Oct. 7th.
They therefore inarguably deserve everything that happened to them every time, and will continue to, until they see self defense, including firearms ownership, as a basic human right, not a privilege granted by the state.
Only tyrants favor gun control, and it doesn’t matter who they are.
Personal weapons = freedom.
It’s non-negotiable, for all time, everywhere.
Until they know this in their bones, they can suck it when terrorism strikes.
They’ve made their entire nation a gun free zone for terrorists.
Having made that bed, let them lie in it.
The biggest mistake the Nation of Israel made in 1948 was forming a parliamentary government.
And I think a few politicians in Israel, including the current Prime Minister, know that in their bones.
Virginia state Representative Nick Freitas — PBUH — put it very well not that long ago: “Why does the US continue to set up Parliamentary governments in the places we militarily liberate from tyranny?”
The Jewish State… hmmm.
People I know in the US who self-label as Jewish (with only one exception) in actuality practice the religion of Liberalism… whose tenets include worship of state and self, not God, and also having a disarmed populace. Apparently the Israelis haven’t avoided the curse of Liberalism.
Well, I don’t know you and you don’t know me.
I’m Jewish, so are my kids. We are not liberal in any sense. My son is a retired AF pilot, now a history professor in a mid-level university. My daughter is a trauma/vascular surgeon. All of us have CCWs, regularly carry, and voted for Trump three times.
Liberal? Perhaps in the classical, JFK-liberal sense. Not these rose-colored socialists calling themselves progressives, liberals, or decent people.
Doc, my best shootin’ buddy is Jewish. You and he are the only ones with whom I’ve communicated who are not progressives or liberals.
And if you worked ER in Maine maybe I DO know you….
Nope, the only time I’ve been to Maine was flying through Loring.
But thanks.
SP RN-
The Jews invented communism and their failed ways… it’s in their DNA. That being said, most who identify as Jews, are not. They are Khazarians, the fake jews that Jesus warned us about.
You are full of reeking bullshit.
You’ve had the nasty stink of a Nazi oozing off you for quite some time, but you’ve finally made it explicit.
https://jpfo.org
Not all have fallen. Striking similarities between 1968 GCA and Adolph’s arguments to make the “Fatherland” safe.
There are a few warriors out there, check out this story, I remembered it from last year and dug it out for your viewing pleasure. Not only is she ‘easy on the eyes’ but a valuable instructor and combat warrior.
https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/israeli-woman-25-hailed-as-hero-for-killing-terrorists-leading-security-team-at-kibbutz/
If you had done this with all the kibbutz, it would have been a game changer… Guns and training matter.
She was the ‘security coordinator’ – but had to unlock the armory to arm herself, and her team.
There is something wrong with that.
The first picture in this article https://jewishreviewofbooks.com/articles/246/the-kibbutz-and-the-state/# shows how it was in 1948. That M-98 is bigger than the woman farming. But it was handy.
[As an aside, the so called “Israeli-carry” (loaded mag, empty chamber, safety off) was because that was the safest way to give loaded firearms to poorly trained people. In the 80ish years since independence, there’s been time to train everyone over 18].
At my last CCL qualifying test in TX (25 years ago), I shot the range test. I punched a 3 inch hole in the center of the 5 ring and placed three outliers in the 4 ring. The woman that scored my target complained that she could not produce a count because she could not judge the accuracy of any rounds that may have hit in the missing part of the target. The instructor took one look at the target and said, he shot a 247. She was not happy, but acquiesced.
I too took the Texas CCW test – My medical group supplied ER docs to some hospitals in the San Antonio area.
Turns out it’s the same qualification as Texas POST requires. Frightening, frankly.
I scored 249/250. One flyer on the first round, when the person next to me on the open range (no lanes) got about a foot from me and decided to fire.
Texas TCOLE (POST) qualifications are higher than for a LTC. You are also no longer required to qualify to renew a LTC in Texas. However, Peace Officers must qualify a minimum on once a year to maintain their PO license.
I was having a conversation with a new friend this week.
We couldn’t figure a way to combine ability and rights. He was definitely one of those “yes… But…” People.
Personally, I think the real question/ problem isn’t the training issue – it’s a MUCH larger question of society interaction and learning.
In most places, immediate response to stupidity was allowed where it wasn’t encouraged – somebody being stupid or unsafe would be immediately, and usually physically, corrected, whether it was guns or anything else.
We’ve moved away from that as a society and it has led to lots of issues.
Widely issued CCWs are walking back a tiny piece of the change but there is far more that most people don’t even think about.
I think it’s very simple. Everyone has the right to live, hence the right to self-defense, and firearms are the best tool available to equalize the disparity in force between the average law-abiding person and the average criminal.
So, everyone gets a firearm.
But, if they screw up: If they use it inappropriately, if they have road rage, or shoot the letter carrier thinking he was a threat (and wasn’t), then they also have the right to pay, dearly. Prison, poverty, etc. Insurance should be available (more than it is now) to indemnify people against such charges: The insurance companies will refuse to insure anyone they think is too much of a risk. Or, other insurance companies will provide the coverage at a higher premium.
https://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/why-jews-hate-guns.htm
As a real example of your thesis,City of Chicago had a gun registry that was closed in 1975
Nothing was allowed except police, judges and politicians. This was the basis for it being overturned by the courts as no one was still capable that could have registered a firearm at that time. Exactly as stated.
BTW can we stay at least near the subject?
We have multiple firearms training institutions in the US, along with hundreds of individual trainers. Do they not have something similar in Israel?
On the flip side, I think that firearms training in America should be taught in public school from an early age, and informal target competitions should be encouraged at the local again.