You’re not stupid, so Im pretty sure youve figured that your buddy Zero found himself a property that caught his interest. Indeed I did. It caught my interest so much, in fact, that I drove out there today to look at. Glad I did because, in case you didnt know, what you see in a Google Earth satellite pic and a real estate website gallery may not always jibe with reality. In the words of the War Department “There is no substitute for boots on the ground.”
The property in question was two 20-acre lots that butted up against a couple thousand acres of private land that was in a conservation easement. Nearest power was a long ways away. The property had two storage conexes already on it. My biggest two concerns were the terrain and the roads. I don’t mind driving a dirt road but if the road was a winding, torturous affair that precluded things like a well-drilling rig and the like….well, thats gonna be a problem.
I knew it might be a challenging drive so I packed for it…shovel, hilift, straps, chains, extra fuel, extra water, radios, flares, smoke, first aid, rations, etc. Because in Montana you just don’t know.
We’d made it about 3/4 of the way to the property (amazingly staying on course, which was an incredible accomplishment all on its own) before I had decided in my head that this was going to be a ‘hard pass’ just on the strength of the truly horrific road. There was one stretch that was such a steep downhill run that I seriously doubted my ability to climb it on the return. In rain or thaw it would have been a Slip-N-Slide. How a couple conexes made it to this property is utterly beyond me.
Once there it only took a few minutes to see that this was not gonna be the new Beta Site. Altitude was a bit up there at 6000′. Terrain was all distinctly stingy with the flat spaces. And, more importantly, there were more houses up there than my careful Google Earth reconnoitering had shown. Combine that with the Highway To Hell and I couldn’t salvage the rest of my Saturday fast enough. SO, since I am definitely not taking it…here’s a link to it.
I have almost always regretted spending money more often than I have regretted not spending it. I am certain that this will be a case where I won’t regret not spending money.
But, for the last week, while waiting to get a chance to go look at this piece, my mind had to go and start addressing concerns that I really hadn’t given too much thought to. Things like maintaining privacy in the purchase, fuel logistics, septic logistics, water logistics, fuel selection, structure type, internet access, neighbor politics, vehicle considerations, etc, etc, etc. Some of these issues I’ll be bringing up in the blog later to get the opinion of the hivemind.
Following. Work smart not hard. You should have a 3 to 5 page spreadsheet of all the possible pros and cons considerations that you would template apply to any one property you would at first glance consider, then as a punch ticket on further research study or by way of site inspection, to either accept or as this case outright disqualify from selection. Of note, there may be as many disqualifiers with those purportedly idyllic rural locales or raw land options as an in townie property. You can handle making the numbers work on any choice, but I would not be overly adamant on getting that burt gummer perfect redoubt fortress property with no neighbors and only amish farmers nearby. Not likely to happen without millions of dollars liquid to spend to buy that ideal squat spot. I treated my move as a controlled evacuation from a blast radius blue hive. There may be some assessments in items on your list that turn your nose down, but a better than nothing, or better than where you came from assessment may be necessary to mollify any disappointments or lowered expectations. It depends on what one’s tolerance thresholds are or what trade offs there are. (Without a wife that only looks or nags at baths and countertops you can more easily make those tactical and strategic decisions pertaining to a subject property, so much easier without background noise. Sorry ladies, life and death thinking here) It will happen, as there is no 100% perfect property out. Time is not critical but getting it actually done versus the speed and trajectory of things going down should be a fire in the ass of anyone contemplating “a jump” to move their a.o. situation. Happy hunting, holler if you need readership muscle ‘evacuating’ to a new locale, many are nearby. Stay frosty during ecape and evasions.
Zero, thanks for sharing that. And how do I put this…due to my profession I regularly work with a new person in a confined environment for hours at a time. It is not uncommon that they have an interest in the same things that interest people that frequent your blog. I regularly counsel these guys that the list of considerations are long. I point them to your site and talk with them about the many logistical considerations you listed, and more. Your list is good. Money solves a lot, but that in and of itself creates problems. Like nosy neighbors wondering where the dollars suddenly showed up from. Keep looking, best of luck, keep posting these types of posts because I have a saying that is applicable – “I don’t have to recreate mistakes of others. I would rather learn from the mistakes of others in order to avoid making them myself.” Your list is not comprehensive, but it has some really big “show stopper” type items on it. Those are the types of things you are very, very, smart to try and address up front on your potential acquisition.
I’ve passed on similar properties that looked good from a distance but failed up close.
Yeah, its a pain in the ass to spend an entire day off rock crawling along a goat trail to a piece of property, but there’s no way in hell I’m spending over a hundred grand for something without checking its teeth and kicking its tires.
It never ceases to amaze me when we spend 3 hours going to look at the side of a mountain priced stupid , that there is a neighbor on every side of it !!!
It seems thats really what youre paying for – privacy/lack of people
If it didn’t trigger warm fuzzies, probably best to walk away. Also, there appears to be no recorded water rights anywhere in the entirety of Section 9 T11N R11W. But your goat trail assessment may suggest a gap in your education, knowledge, or experience. Clearly the ConEx made it up there, and it was likely done with aplomb and little drama by those more experienced or knowledgeable than yourself. And then they did it again. I might consider such a road as a bonus extended perimeter defense with a low likelyhood of looky loos wandering by. But I’m guessing you’d like to commute to Missoula which seems an unlikely proposition in January.
I suspect the conexes were brought in by the timber company who probably dragged them up there, brute force style, with a couple of D7’s and then sold them to the locals when they were done. I’m fully aware that a road that is crappy for my needs is also crappy enough to help keep out the riff raff, but I’m not living in a yurt…I need a house and that means some stuff is gonna have to be brought in. Big stuff. And for that, I need a better-than-goat-trail road. Theres an upcoming post about this.
There you go problem solved- buy a tracked vehicle!! Seriously we had friend out in Colorado who parked their vehicles at the bottom of “the mountain” and would use a UTV/snowmobile (depending upon season) to go up and down the mountain. Does create some logistical challenges
Knew a guy who built on a island in a small lake that was fordable by his lifted pick up 3/4;of the year but required a boat or snowmobile the remainder. He was absolutely clear when building it was probably never sellable or liveable in old age. He had had some issues with local .gov types and required extreme measures to assure “midnight” visits were not easily accomplished.
There’s a few Brands (Japan/Korea) of Construction Equipment that have modest-sized, Diesel, Full-Track Dump Trucks that have nearly Unstoppable Off-Road Mobility (Snow, too). A used one of these, with the Dump replaced with a Cargo Bed, would solve almost any Bad/No-Road situation. Loggers often use these, that may be how the Conex Boxes got up there.
Now… I not one to talk, since I live 3 miles from the largest nuclear weapon storage facilities in the world, but have you ever considered a location west, outside of the silo field?
If you want to own property and have that ownership remain private set up a holding company. You can do that in any State. Since you aren’t engaging in business the legal costs should be low. No operating permits or licenses. It’s the best way I have found to cover your ass and remain off grid in a legal way.
Land trust with a attorney as named party, one time set up and small annual cost. Set up and use to transfer as private property(same as ownership of a private business,not a.recorded land transfer. DISHONEST ABE LINCOLNS legal invention as the lawyer for Railroads to start the War of Northern Aggression)
Sorry it didn’t work out. On the plus side, every property you turn down will help you make you smarter decisions the next time around.
+1 on the holding company. +2 if the HC is an obscurely-names “commercial organization,”+3 if that HC has a mailing/contact address NOT anywhere near your actual address. You’ll need your actual for electric, etc – but not mail, that can go anywhere there’s a “mailbox.” The actual will be, somewhere, on tax records, but a good commercial real estate attorney can tuck it away under vague and semi-inaccurate descriptions in the business paperwork. Pro Tip: Never, ever “discuss” with a realtor or anyone else in the real estate business what your plans are. Their mouths are set to “auto blab” as the default. If you find a parcel that you want, a real estate attorney is the best choice, let him do all the talking, and you’re protected by the attorney-client relationship.
Lacking all that, a revocable trust in a *very obscure name* with the attorney’s address as the contact address is light years better than a direct ownership & listing. The actual addy will have to be listed somewhere in the trust but lawyerly cleverness can hide it to a degree.
“Nearest power was a long ways away.”
Do not let this be a barrier, 100% off grid is absolutely doable. I have designed and installed several such systems and intend on doing so for my “retirement” property. This opens up tons of properties that are more remote and cheaper due to cost of grid hookup. The money you save on the property often pays for the solar/wind system.
I’m completely agreeable to off-grid. I’m leaning towards PV/generator (propane) for electrical things like light and comms, and propane for everything else. But I’m still weighing it all out in my head. Its a post for another day.
PV is pricy if you insist on capacity and reliability. Urban buyers pay no attention to redundancy, and rural buyers scarcely more so. The move to micro inverters helps but there are other high-cost components you will require as spares for true off-grid reliability over the long haul.
It seems that most providers go out of business after a couple of years, and so while you wouldn’t be entirely on your own new vendors are typically more interested in selling you a new system as opposed to maintaining your existing system. But you’ve always seemed like a “do it myself if I have to” kind of guy. It ain’t that complicated. Overbuild capacity if you can afford it; the older you get the less you’ll want to engage with transporting fuel.
We’ve added a 1000-gallon tank to our existing propane storage (used for water heater, stove, deco fireplace and a too-big 26kw genny and a smaller (5.6k) portable genny), and while we’re better off than most folks in our semi-rural area if the SHTF I don’t see refills coming anytime soon. So one of these days we’ll be adding PV and batteries and overkilling it with spares. Remember spare parts for your heat pump – they’re extremely low-cost now but unobtainable later!
First world problems; ultimately starving but you’ve got lights and heat. Still probably better than being a refugee.