If you’re into preparedness long enough, you can observe and participate in the evolution of technology as the years go by. For example, forty years ago when I was just getting my feet wet in this particular interest, the Krypton bulb was considered the pinnacle of flashlight technology. Then came a few other specialty bulbs for your MagLite, twenty or so years ago the LED bulbs started to first appear, and now I doubt anyone buys a new flashlight with anything other than a high-output LED bulb. Another example would be optics. Back in the day, if you had a 4x Colt scope mounted to the carry handle of your CAR15 (which we now call an M4), well, you were operating. Then it moved to variables, then holographic and dot sights, then night vision, and now thermals. This was technology that wasn’t only unavailable when I was a kid…it was undreamed of. (At least at the consumer grade.)
I mention this because I recall about ten years ago people were wondering if ‘drones’ had any place in the smart survivalists repertoire. At that point drones were, mostly, an observation device….like airplanes in WWI. And then, much like WWI, some wag decided to bring along a hand grenade to surprise the enemy. Drone combat was born.
That brought me around to thinking what was one of he greatest force multipliers (and greatest threats) for your average survivalist in the last decade or so and I think the answer is…drones.
At the moment, if you wanna blow up a tank in Ukraine, or scout the national forest for elk, you need to sit there with a GameBoy in your lap and a set of goggles on your face. If the hype is to be believed, in the not-so-distant-future we’ll have AI to do the grunt work of drone flying for us. You’ll whip out your KillCopter2000, flip the switch marked ‘sentry/patrol mode’, heave it into the air, and go back to your roadblock as the thing patrols a pre-set flight path and investigates anything unusual…all while your camped around your JetBoil with the rest of your buddies drinking coffee and discussing current events.
Funny thing is, while we’re using all this rapidly evolving technology in drones, scopes, radios, geolocation, and illumination, most of us will be still carrying rifles that are fundamentally unchanged from when they were introduced 60 years ago (AR) or almost 80 years ago (AK). The classics just keep marching on, I suppose. (Especially if the WWI tactics in Ukraine are anything to go by.)
That last statement reminds me…ever do one of those fantasy ‘what if’ daydreams? You know, something like “what if there had been AK’s in the Civil War?”, or “What if a nuclear aircraft carrier were at the attack on Pearl Harbor?” (spoiler…that first one was a book, that second one was a movie.) If you ever wondered what would have happened if the guys in the trenches had automatic rifles instead of bolt actions in WW1…well, youre seeing it. Still a stalemate. Technology can’t make up for staid and outdated military tactics, I suppose.
Have a couple copies of the book and read or watched both the book and movie several times. Both excellent works that breed many other thoughts of “What If”.
“If you ever wondered what would have happened if the guys in the trenches had automatic rifles instead of bolt actions in WW1” The guys in the trenches did have automatic weapons, though not all of them.
Ok, let me rephrase it….“If you ever wondered what would have happened if the guys in the trenches had semi-automatic rifles instead of bolt actions in WW1”
Clearly there were automatic guns in WWI…Chauchats, Winchester 1907 and 1910, Maxims, Madsens, Colts, and that sort of thing…but what I meant was each troop with a bolt-action rifle carrying something like an AR or AK.
Certainly there were troops armed with semi/automatic rifles but they were far, far, far fewer in number than the bolt actions.
Arty says hold my beer again
A drone’s a force multiplier. Sort of.
For the 15 minutes it has power.
How long to recharge?
How many batteries do you have?
It can only be in one place at a time. So you’re only looking at a couple of degrees of a potentially 360° perimeter.
So only a lot of drones, and a lot more batteries are a force mutiplier.
One drone is simply a way to snoop around, without risking getting bushwhacked yourself.
And while that screen is on your face, you’re not seeing anything else.
Bonus: A drone up there means there’s an operator somewhere nearby.
Which may be the exact information you’d like to not advertise.
NV? Yeah, If I have that, and an IR laser, you’re my meat.
Unless you had a thermal instead, and I ended up in your ambush.
Thermal works both ways, btw.
So maybe the answer is to put an electric blanket on a dummy silhouette wearing a uniform, standoff to one side, and see who shoots at it.
The answer to tech as a force multiplier is always: maybe.
Ask the SAM crewmen (the survivors you can find) from the Bekaa Valley how all their high-tech radars helped them out in 1982 during Operation Mole Cricket 19.
A drone is great stuff to see down a valley from off a cliff, without ever getting out of your hole.
Or creating an aerial vantage point in a desert or open plains.
Even patrolling an obvious perimeter (say a sand road inside or outside a fencline that shows footprints of crossers) without walking it and risking getting ambushed.
Covering a perimeter in heavy woods? Not so much.
Like TV, it only shows you what the camera’s pointing at, while leaving out everything it isn’t.
A drone would have been handy for Paul Revere. But not so much for the guys at Lexington Common.
You’ve got to understand the strengths and weaknesses of any gear you’re using. Just like understanding 4WD or MOPP gear are for getting you out of trouble, not used for getting you into it.
There are already drones that are designed to operate as a group in a mesh network. Each individual drone is typically smaller, but together they move like a flock of small birds. Their phone-home capabilities are indeterminate, but it’s likely that they report everything they see to some remote station.
There are videos of 30ish Chinese drones moving through thick vegetation without slowing down. If each one has a single cartridge or small explosive charge, they could completely disrupt a platoon.
I don’t know the specifics of the group that I’ve seen on video, but you send a swarm of 30, with a data capture drone at the rear. Once the 30 have done their damage, the data drone returns with 30 individual videos of their encounter. AI processes it and identifies equipment and manpower. No one has to have their face buried in a screen until it’s time to evaluate and plan the next attack.
The individual units are cheap, intended for one use and to be replaced. Sort of like a smart bullet. And when you own the plants that make all the parts, you have a virtually endless supply.
That works only as long as the network uplink or downlink does.
Jam it, or blow it up?
Game over.
I’m also less than impressed by ad copy for weapons systems.
Meanwhile, none of that has any application to the lone or small group user, which was the entire context of the post.
You’re talking apples to oranges.
So this bumps up against an area I’ve put some energy into at work. Respectfully you are strait wrong on this one homie.
Pray, continue the lesson.
Semi-autonomous, self targeting is already a thing.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-s-special-forces-have-developed-new-tech-that-allows-drones-to-fly-without-gps-so-russia-can-t-jam-them-report/ar-BB1nomJC?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=10f068959f5240939564093e43967deb&ei=33
Drones have done for ISR/ air support what the internet did for information. Anybody who can buy a $500 drone (or a few of them) has a halfway decent little Air Force.
Over time as technology as well as tactics change the relative advantage shifts back and forth between offensive and defensive. The general consensus is that the advantage lies with the defender these days.
Guns of the South was a great book
I think before I’d spend money on dumb toys I’d rather do things the old fashioned way. Like I’ve been doing them for the better part of my 70 years on this rock.
Me. My idea of perfection is someplace I can live that has no more then one asshole per square mile and unable to hear the sound of anything manmade. The farther away for civilization so called the better I like it.
That sounds a lot like my vision of the ideal place–with the one asshole being me.
I use a drone during my prospecting adventures to help me locate ancient river channels, drywasher tailings, placer workings and old waterfalls. Saves me a lot of time and wasted hiking. Sometimes I find abandoned vehicles, meth labs and cartel growers.
I had a cousin who was on a swat team in rural Oklahoma back when meth labs were all the rage. Buy a farmhouse, make sure the fields are clear 300 yards in all directions around your house, put up no trespassing signs, lock the front gate, start cooking meth and if some unfortunates serve a warrant, that is a hell of a kill zone they have to cross while you are firing at them.
Can you imagine trying to serve that warrant if you have a drone land a thermite grenade on the engine block?
We are only beginning to really comprehend the full extent as to how drones can be used in situations from law enforcement, to crime, to warfare, etc.
Example, criminals fleeing a robbery, cop car in close pursuit. Drone is launched, touches down on cop car, sets off EMP and fries cop car’s computer system, car out of commission, and bad guys drive away. There are just too many obvious ways our technology can be abused by both criminals in government and out.
How would a hobby drone be capable of generating and EMP event on a moving vehicle?
Seriously?
You know the drone would not have an EMP function, it would carry an EMP device. Just like a drone would not be a thermite grenade, it would carry one. There are videos on youtube on how to make a pocket sized EMP.
I doubt any device that could be carried by a hobby drone is capable of creating the EMP event required to disable a vehicle.
You’ve just summarized the entire plot of Runaway.
Tom Selleck, 1984.
Yes, really, 1984.
and the main bad guy was Gene Simmons.
I think all of this has to be placed in the context of a few days after your particular SHTF event and you’re wondering how you’re going to use your minimal solar power system when it has been heavily overcast and raining for the past week, or snowing, etc. Gray Fox
to go even more simple, I wonder if anyone has a drone capable of carrying a 22 LR zip gun type of device. Or maybe cut down a cheap semi auto and stealth blast a target with 25 rounds of CCI stingers. Now that would be a drone I would want. Plus I’ve seen a flamethrower option, got to have that too.
Ruger 10/22 action with a barrel chopped to 8 inches or so would not weigh that much. Even less if you drill plenty of lightening holes in the receiver and use one of the lightweight composite barrels intended for the Ruger Charger.
Black Dog Machine makes a 50- round drum for the 10/22 that has a pretty good reputation for reliability.
Add a simple laser pointer as a sighting device and you have a not terribly expensive weapons package that is light enough for many hobbyist-grade drones to lift.
Would make ‘dead ground’ and other cover around your location quite dangerous for anyone trying to approach with ill intent.
Not legal, of course, at the present to fly such a device. But plausibly-deniable parts that could all be acquired at present and tested as sub-assemblies. Less legal risk than building some of the other options for delivering hate and discontent via drone.
A Charger with a 50 rd mag is upwards of 4 pounds.
That’s assuming the thing would fly despite the recoil, which is an open question in itself.
A one-lb payload is currently doable. I could even spot you doubling that with a zip gun.
Getting up to four pounds with COTS products, not so much. That’s getting into the zone where even Glen Filthie starts making sense on the topic, and drones with prices only governments and millionaires can afford.
A hobby-level drone has some bare utility, for some times and places.
But the strengths and weaknesses are both in play.
If you can afford “a small air force”, and the computer network to handle surveillance, you might as well wish yourself up some claymores, hard-wired fixed camera surveillance, a cup of coffee and a chocolate donut with sprinkles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X597LpLU7E
We weren’t talking about what governments can do.
We were talking about what Joe Sixpack in his TEOTWAWKI bunker can do.
Range, endurance, payload, and guidance is what matters.
Physics is a bitch like that.
And about the time you figure out how to do a 4# lift, someone else will put 4 1# weights on a monofilament net, fly it above your drone, and helpfully drop it out of the sky for you.
Now where are you?
Somewhere nearby, and blind.
Drones have undeniable utility, for some missions.
They are not the end of the discussion, nor even that revolutionary.
Otherwise everyone would be buying them by the millions.
A drone might have helped Custer at the Little Big Horn, for one example, but only if he had the wit to listen to what they told him. Which skill he was singularly lacking at the time in the first place.
We had air search radar operating on Oahu the morning of December 7th, 1941.
So, how’d that work out for us?
Tech is a tool. Not a panacea.
After meeting and talking with 3 survivors of Pearl Harbor the conclusion is obvious,FDR provoked Japan to action,knew the attack to the day(we were decrypting faster than the jap navy) and purposely allowed the attack to be successful. Huge pr stunt,minimal losses(mostly antiquated ships and aircraft,many personnel on leave for first time in 6 weeks of invasion alert)
The guys doing this for realsies use drones to drop grenades or just as kamakazi’s.
That requires having grenades and bombs from the get-go.
I could probably rig an igniter and homemade thermite without too much effort. (I give Achmed The Soon-To-Be-Dead terrorist about another year to figure this out for himself. I’m frankly surprised we aren’t there already, but that just underlines he hasn’t got the reach and resources we fear he has. Yet.)
A grenade would be a much taller order.
A reliable munition, harder still.
Nothing gets interesting for anyone until capabilities start to match up to intentions.
Our U.S. military has been training “Achmed” for over 50 years on improvising nasty things abroad and at home. “Achmed is here and well equipped thanks to the criminals running our country.
That’s an assumption, but one not borne out by any successful operations in 23 years.
I tend to think if they could do something, they would, and if they haven’t, it’s only because they cannot.
I’m not questioning their intentions, which are the given in the equation.
Their capabilities, meantime, are virtually nil, purely on the basis that they haven’t done much above squat and a couple of lone jihadi gunmen since 9/11.
Were reality otherwise, some enterprising young Achmed, using a COTS drone and about $50 worth of chemicals ordered off of Amazon would have long since dropped a soda can of thermite on a full LNG tank, and taken out an entire harbor in about 60 seconds with a blast reliably described as “like a nuclear explosion going off”.
Then they would have done the same thing to every LNG terminal. And then started working on oil refineries.
I would. Anyone would.
This is Terrorism 101-level planning and execution. If I can figure it out, someone in a cave in Pakistan has already got a briefing file on it.
So they can’t pull that off. Yet..
QED
I just wanted to say the Jetboil and coffee part took me back to 20 degree mornings at deer camp and French press coffee out of the Jetboil.
Miss that.
I remember seeing an armed drone on that FPS Russia video sight. Thing carried one or two fully automatic weapons on board. Very interesting concept. But giving it some thought if a ” Red Dawn” type of attack such as the one in Isreal on Oct 7, 2023. Somrthing like that with say a half dozen drones with competent operators might just be the ideal thing to deal with such an occurrence.
I have, to my displeasure, watched too much war porn videos from the UKR-RUS thing and I am trying to form some basic understanding of the potential RMA (Revolution in Military Affairs) that drones might represent. First: one must assume that you are being surveilled, unless you have taken steps to not be. Second: simple things, like screens or sheet metal covers on bolt-hole entrances are a must, it keeps the drone from getting inside where payload effects are magnified. The Russians seem to use them, UKR, not so much. There often appears to be, usually, an observation drone and a “strike drone”. Drones can have night vision and thermal capability, need to have countermeasures. There is lots more, still thinking it through.
Saw a picture from big green on some sort of RF gun they had for ‘anti-drone’ warfare. While I understand the possible intelligence value of retrieving said drone without physically damaging it, without all of the IC infrastructure and squad-sized security element to aid in recovery and exploit… this all points to the good sense of investing in a scatter-gun in the 10-gauge variety.
I still have in my giant pile o’ crap some super-duper surprisingly small diameter steel cable that the military used to tow targets behind an aircraft for AA target practice. Which gives me an idea.
Maybe have someone set up a drone to tow a mylar balloon target around so folks can practice shooting down drones with a shotgun. First one to accidently shoot down the non-target drone has to buy dinner and drinks.
Now that is how you take down a grid,steel cable over multiple high tension lines,let the fireworks begin
Back in the day, I was cleaning out my truck (I do that twice a year, swapping winter/summer stuff) and counted 12 different flashlights.
My wife wondered why I had so many, and I said I carried 12, because I might need one or two. They were not terribly reliable – even the (then newish) maglights. The cost of those flashlights was not small, either.
These days? Maybe four….including two headlamps. All LED. Batteries changed 2x yearly. And they always work. I have high end (Streamlight) and low end (checkout line at HD). Frankly, I tend to prefer the cheap ones: If they get covered in grease, oil or blood, well…I can afford another $0.99 flashlight without a qualm.
The best deal I’ve found in lighting? The lanterns from Harbor Freight, when they’re on sale. They even come with batteries (sort of). Great deal.
Don’t think of drones as just high-tech observation devices.
Think of them as moderately-techy delivery vehicles for implements of your dislike for uninvited guests.
Evaluate your area of operations. There are certain to be portions that are “dead ground” that you can’t reach with a rifle bullet, where even a poorly trained and poorly equipped attacker will take cover and fire from. A drone is the means to deliver effective fire upon that dead space.
The options are multiple: rig a drone to carry a small gun — a cut-down 10/22 with a cheap laser pointed taped to the barrel. Rig a drone to carry a small explosive device — the Ukrainians have done this with hand grenades, mortar projectiles and (likely) the bomblets from US-supplied clusterbomb units. The mechanics of a simple impact fuze and pipe full of blackpowder are not complicated, though there are legal issues one should take into account.
Even just a payload of ultra-low-tech “Lazy Dog” projectiles that use gravity as their propellant. The actual GI lazy dogs can be found online. but why pay collectors’ prices when you can DIY your own with an angle grinder, some rebar and some lengths of flagging tape tied to one end?
As the price of drones continues to fall and the capabilities continue to increase, start thinking of them as expensive special ammunition. No need to worry about getting payload release mechanisms to operate reliably if the whole drone is the munition and it’s on a one-way trip.
Call when drones are $5@.
Right now, minimums are $160-220 for anything worth the trouble.
That gets you 26″ endurance, and a max 3000m LOS range.
That would be 5″ to-and from, and 16 minutes loiter/search, max.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZuJPS9ymUo
So you’re burning through 2-4 full batteries/hr., apiece.
That’s no weapons, daylight-only observation.
And zero additional payload, and no night capability whatsoever.
Things like night vision and thermal would jump you to $3K-$5K@, if you could even find them.
If you could afford 2-3 of those, you might as well get an ultralight a/c and learn to fly.
And all those little drones?
They run on radio freq controllers.
Run around in the dark with a lit road flare and try to hide, and see if you can see why that might be a bad thing.
Triangulation? You’re dead.
Jamming? Drone is bricked.
GPS jammed? Drone auto-nav is bricked.
And that’s while you’re laser-focused on just running your drone.
Whole lotta ways for these to fail, not very many ways for them to succeed, unless you know you’re going up against pygmies with bamboo spears.
IMHO, focusing on counter-drone efforts would be better bang for the buck.
Long time ago this kid mounted a pistol on a drone and got a visit from the feds. Turns out, given how far behind the curve fed.gov is, this wasn’t illegal, back then anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI–wFfipvA
You can hear a smart man who knows talk about this issue. I think it is about 25-35 mins in but the entire thing is worth a listen.
https://tuckercarlson.com/tucker-show-erik-prince
The highly developed versions have very few weaknesses – you won’t do much to them except taking them down physically. And now they are so fast that you will not have a lot of time to do so. This may not yet be true for amateurs but we’ve had professionals imported for 4 years, now. I think those days are over.
My suggestion would be to invest in thermal defeating materials and strategies. Flannel Daddy speaks to it at min 26:
https://youtu.be/jLZjbnhhvgQ?feature=shared
These guys are the ones:
https://fibrotexusa.com/individual/
While I say having plenty of overwatch options via drone is a good idea, simply being unseen and unnoticed is a better idea.
More drone thoughts from watching UKR-RUS war porn: The “amateur” strike drones often have a tangle of wire out front, you can see it on videos. This tangle of wire is most likely an electric detonation switch. Drone hits target, wires compress, positive meets negative, bang! Next, when”amateur” drones are bearing down on a moving target (vehicle), they tend to line up behind it or in front of it. Sophisticated ones like Lancets can make lateral strikes, but…maybe…the cheap ones cannot, easily. So facing front and back is probably where you you want your guys with shotguns if that is what you think will work. Still thinking about it.
Oh, the rabbit holes this thread has gone done!! lol, just setting back drinking my coffee and enjoying the back and forth.
My recollection is that there was a Twilight Zone episode about a Sherman tank crew that time-traveled back to the Little Big Horn and joined up with Custer. The story evolved to end that it made no difference and they died with Custer’s command.
A few things to consider with weaponized drones:
The location information from a GPS enabled drone can be extracted using Cellebrite software, in one instance a drone that crashed smuggling drugs into a correctional facility had been test flow in the “pilot’s” drive way. The location information was later used in his prosecution.
A completely disposable drone can be built from Styrofoam or other cheap materials, which is common among RC hobbyist who participate in aerial dog fights. Traditionally these are fixed wing rather than the currently popular quad copters. Styrofoam RC aircraft would be very hard to detect with normal radar. Kamikaze drones need not be even radio guided, consider a propeller driven version of the V1 Flying Bomb of WW2. It would just have to be aimed from its launcher in a manner similar to artillery. Swarms would not need to be terribly accurate if the target was a large facility or assembly area.
TM 31-210 contains a version of a Molotov Cocktail that combusts when the bottle breaks and combines the liquid inside with the saturated cloth on the outside. No actual flame is required, which would be idea for use either dropped from a quad copter or on a kamikaze drone.