I really don’t want to get too far in the weeds with this, but, as I see it, it could be reasonably argued that there is a utility in having an accurate suppressed carbine of some kind for low-signature shooting at ranges not much past 100 yards. And while a suppressed .22 in a quality bolt gun with a good suppressor on the end is a fine, fine instrument…sometimes you need a bit more bullet mass.
So, how would you do that, exactly? A suppressed bolt action rifle would be pretty much ideal…no noise of the action cycling, no special mods to the rifle to allow cycling with subsonic ammo, etc. (A single shot carbine would give the same benefit but follow up shots would be rather slow…on the other hand, this sort of arm is seldom called on for volume-of-fire applications.)
So…a suppressed bolt action out to about 100 yards. One hundred yards isnt a very challenging distance with a scoped carbine, so almost any caliber will do if it can be kept subsonic with relative ease. The first thing that springs to mind is a 9mm or .45 ACP gun. Pistol ammo is easy to load down to subsonic, and .45 AARP is natively subsonic. Problem is, when was the last time you saw a bolt action 9mm of any worth? (Sure, 9mm Destroyer carbines are out there…but those are novelty Spanish guns. Repros of the DeLisle are out there, but I wouldnt call them precision.) My first thought, and still on my radar, is a Ruger 77/357….a bolt-action .357 Mag that would let me use my 9mm suppressors. Loaded with 200 gr. bullets it should be just fine for the relatively short range while providing a good platform with potential for accuracy….bolt action, integral scope mounts, aftermarket trigger availability, etc. Problem is finding one.
So, I did a bit of research and decided that while I am still going to keep an eye open for the threaded 77/357, I was going to pick up a bolt gun in .300 Blackout. This would let me use my .30 suppressor and the exterior ballistics would be an improvement over a pistol bullet. As a bonus, the Ruger version uses AR15 mags for most applications. (Depending on how you load the cartridge, an average Pmag will work fine, but if youre going to seat bullets out a bit further you might want a dedicated purpose-built .300 Blackout AR mag.)
And thus we got this:
Its a Ruger American® Rifle Generation II Ranch in .300 Blackout. I then changed out the stock for a Magpul stock. I threw the Sig SRD762-QD suppressor on there and fired a few rounds just to see how quiet it is. Gotta say, it isn’t “Hollywood quiet” but it isn’t too far away from it. I need to throw a scope on and I’m thinking that since it’s for fairly short ranges, either a variable 1-6x or a fixed 6x would be the way to go. Why the Magpul stock? A couple reasons..first, and I’m not ashamed to say it, it looks cooler. I like the sling attachment options, the subdued color, MLOK points to attach accessories, adjustable cheekpiece and spacers, and the AK-style mag release.
The only drawback to all this, naturally, is that I now have to work the logistics of a new cartridge. I’m not happy about that, and thats one of the reasons I’m still holding out for the Ruger 77/357. But I must say that the .300 Blackout was certainly ear-safe and deceptively quiet at the outdoor range. I need to go with a friend and have them shoot it as I pace off some distances away from them to see at what distance it becomes virtually inaudible.
A good question might be why not use subsonic .308 ammo? Well, I gave that a lot of thought. There’s a lot of merit to using .308 from a logistics point of view, but my experience with large (comparatively) cases with light loads has been that you get erratic performance. Enough inconsistent performance to make a difference at 100 yards? Maybe. But there was also the concern of mixing up subsonic .308 with regular .308. I don’t mind mixing up subsonic 9mm with regular 9mm (or .45) because my pistols will digest either one just fine. But my PTR-91’s may have other ideas about subsonic ammo. I may revisit this and try some subsonic .308 but it seemed that if there were going to be tradeoffs that had to be made, then I might as well do the ones that get me something more in line with what I think my needs were.
So…theres the weekend.
If you reload 300 blackout brass can be had fairly cheap. And 500 pieces will last a long time being as you’re shooting a bolt gun. They last me a couple years and I shoot an ar. Also you can load a few with lighter bullets to see how they preform
When I started reading this post, I was thinking of the 300 Blackout with 200 grain bullets. If you are looking for short range, think LVPO like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01I5G8GVU/
I hear the squeaking wheels of the Assault Wheelbarrow approaching.
CZ and “gunkid” have more than a few things in common lol.
I discussed .308 subsonic rounds with my guy who reloads commercially. He does not recommend it pretty much for the reason you stated. This is a guy who has been in the business for decades who probably has >450 different die sets including .700 Tyrannosaurus (~$1000 for 10rds when it was done, heh).
He likes the 9mm using a 158gr subsonic projectile. Not as flat as the .300 BO but at practical ranges ehh. . . And if you load it right your AR-9 becomes a bolt gun. Remember the .300 BO was developed to drop sentries, etc. at 50-75 yards. Yeah, people are shooting hogs with it at 100yds but why?
A friend is working on a round using a 250gr .338 projectile loaded in a 6.5 Grendel case out of a 14″ barrel. Should be a serious thumper.
Two things I can recommend from experience.
I have a Ruger 77 in 7.62×39, and I love it. It can be loaded or purchased subsonic, and will work with your .30 caliber suppressor. And ammo is still relatively cheap.
At ranges up to 200 yards, anything beyond 4X is overkill and unnecessary. My two favorite scopes of all time are a 1-3.5x and a 1.75-5x. Both compact and plenty of magnification. I think they’re both out of production now, but could probably be found used. But there are a lot of 1-4x options available now. I used to shoot competition with a 1.50x and had no trouble hitting out to 400 yards. Anything beyond 4x comes with a penalty of size and weight.
Truth about scope power maximum spoken there, (at least as far as large game (whitetail deer) goes. My go-to deer rifle has a 2.5x-8x scope, but is constantly left on at 5x. I have found very little need to dial up or down using that power – I could be using a fixed power if I wanted to save some weight. What keeps me with that scope is the ability to dial down when walking to my destination.
The older classic hunters of nearly 100 years ago used fixed 4x at all ranges and did not complain of lacking power in allowing a clear shot. Jack O’Conner used his .270 Winchester hunting sheep and goats in the mountains and had very little to complain about.
Yeah a 7.62×39 bolt gun was my idea also.
It has a lot of appeal. The ting that tuned me off was that bore diamters and bullet availability are all over the map. The cartridge is nominally a .311″ bullet, but some makers use .308″ barrels and some do not, the selection of .311″ bullets isnt as broad as .308″, and the bullet weights available in .311″ arent as broad either.
If so, i think you have a CZ 527 carbine in 7.62×39 that would make a splendid candidate. Not only light and short but has a set trigger function that really helps you shoot well off the bench.
I already went down this road. You are absolutely correct about subsonic 308, it’s not worth messing with. 300BLK means another link in the supply chain but it is worth it IMO.
300BLK runs on standard AR15 platform so only uppers are required, shares almost all parts except the barrels. Standard AR15 mags can be used for everything except 220gr subsonics (you might want that little bit of extra room in the special mags for those). Makes an excellent hard hitting medium caliber carbine round with 147gr FMJ, and a flesh deconstructor of excellence with 110gr Barnes Tac-TX bullets (I would pick this load over anything in 7.62×39 or the MK262 inside 200 yards). Mags fit in all of your already acquired and set up kit.
You can get a bolt gun if you want something super quiet and don’t want to worry about flying brass, or just get a piston upper with a gas shut off.
As an added bonus, it performs excellent in very short barrel lengths 8.5-10.5″ similar to a pistol cartridge.
All in all, the flexibility and performance it brings is worth the trouble.
For a long time my thought has been a Ruger PC carbine in 9mm with 158+ grain projectiles it’s about as loud as a big stapler.
I’m evaluating 300 BO with 200+ grain projectiles to get more range and hitting power, but I have the same concern – I don’t want to add and stock another caliber.
I don’t see that a bolt action makes much difference, but I haven’t tried it to compare.
I’m also considering scopes, especially for nighttime ops. I’d love to go thermal, but the cost is a concern for me, even at wholesale prices.
maybe a lever action?
https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/big-boy-x-model/
I did same same when I got my 30 can, 300 blk is very quiet in this firearm. I put together an AR too and it isn’t that much louder. In case i need to move more product, quietly. Very happy with both, and availability of subsonic ammo. As you said, playing with recipes now.
PS recommend one of those little net brass catchers to help keep range clean, too.
If it was me, I’d be looking at a fixed 6. I’m partial to the swfa ss.
I’ve had a similar thought a couple times and I keep running into the question of what does the bolt-gun give me in this short range use-case that an AR doesn’t? If it cycles, that’s great; if not, then I have a straight pull bolt action.
Why not go with a PCC AR? Okay, some action noise with the AR. Then what about the various lever-actions that are flooding my LGS for reasons that I can’t understand lately. If you’re thinking about a threaded tactical 357, then good news, cause that’s half of what’s on the wall behind the counter lately. Just spit balling ideas, I know the pain of trying to add the logistics for a new cartridge. It’s frustrating, cause it just feels so wasteful.
As far as sub sonic 308 is concerned: I’ve never tried a commercial loading, but I tried to roll my own some years back. Drilled flash holes, magnum primers, red dot powder. Got em below 1100 fps and fairly consistent. But threw groups that looked like bad buckshot. I haven’t messed with it since, but good luck if you go scratch at that tree. I imagine someone knows how to do it, but it may take some trial and error.
6.5/best glass money can buy / the 30 cal suppressor .
Airmail the package from an adjacent zip code .
That’s stealth .
I was shown a lever action rifle in .357 Mag/.38 Spc that was fitted with a suppressor. I did not observe it in use, but was told by a reliable source ( who is a suppressor guy) that it was amazingly quiet.
What about the .30 carbine ? Smaller straight walled case in a very common caliber. Couldn’t this be loaded into a subsonic version ? Heavy .30 caliber bullets are available. Maybe a custom T/C chambered barrel with suitable bullet twist could be manufactured from one of the T/C barrel manufacturers. I think Marlin made the model 62 Levermatic in this round some time ago as well.
Seems like a poor candidate. As best I can tell there are virtually no new guns made in this caliber, no bolt actions, the cartridge isnt nearly as common as it used to be, and loading data for heavy subsonic loads doesnt appear in any of my books.
ATN X-Sight LTV 3-9x30mm Day/Night Rifle Scope. It’s good enough for your requirements and won’t break the bank.
“Hi, I’m Zero. Its been 1 hour 38 minutes since my last gun buy.” “Hi Zero. Oooo, watcha got show us?”
Sounds like you have a winner. I would not worry about adding another cal. to the supply line. You won’t need multiple thousands of rounds and different sizes/types for this use. A thousand would/should last you your lifetime. A simple 1 and done. Should feel good to have filled what could be a very important niche. I favor a 1-6 power LPVO. Never know when your target is going to be standing 25 feet away. 6 is good to 100 yards and it covers not being a “spring chicken” anymore. 4 for me is now “iffy” at 100 yards.
You have no idea. Our senior accountant just came up to me at my desk and said “Hey, we have a tenant who paid us back rent in guns. Interested?” A 4″ GP100 and, interestingly, a 6″ nickel Trooper MkIII…made an offer. We’ll see what happens.
This will be the new norm when our fiat goes to zero and barter is the only way to survive.
CZ, in reference to using a .308 Win, Many years ago (20+) I read an article in one of the Gun mags about using reduced charges in large cases and they used a synthetic wool filler (Dacron?) over a small disk to keep the powder in place when using very heavy bullets( long for caliber) This seemingly eliminated the inconsistent ignition of powder and was more uniform in its results. Apparently the filler was either consumed by the powder or pushed out the barrel by the wad, I can’t remember which, and left little fouling. It may have been G&A or American Rifleman magazine. That would have been in the mid 80’s. I never tried it myself so I can’t vouch for it. Very interesting though. TTFN
Using shotgun shot buffering compound (“Super Grex”) was a thing for a while, as was using cornmeal. All of these adulterated loads seem a little too sketchy to me, although I’ve read that they seem to work just fine. With the advent of cowboy-action shooting sports, some very bulky powders were developed for creating light loads that didnt leave a lot of airspace in the case. I believe Trail Boss was one of those powers.
I’ve used Trail Boss in .44mag, and .45 Colt. I haven’t found any loads for rifle calibers. Most of the SR powders(IMR) will do reduced loads in rifle and can use cast bullets as well. These may also be an option for Sub sonic loads with heavy bullets. Cast bullets will engrave well and be accurate at short ranges out to 125yds and they penetrate well with all that mass and moderate velocity. TTFN
I think that 1980 Gun Digest article was of an older Ruger 77 (flat bolt design) for his daughter’s 1st hunting rifle. Roderick S. Carmann – THE .308 – A BEGINNER’S ALL AROUNDER was the title. Killed a pronghorn if I remember correctly.
Verily, a thing of beauty.
Hence my extreme disappointment with the lackwits at Ruger not making a PC-45, and choosing instead to go with their LCC.
Yeah, that was a bit surprising but it appears the PC platform was too small to accommodate he larger .45 AARP cartridge. On the other hand, if the LC platform is large enough to handle the .45, then it seems perfectly reasonable that a 10mm version shouldnt be too far behind.
There’s a whole thread on arfcom about how dangerous 300 bo can be. Easy to mix one into your ar15.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/It-has-been-1-day-and-counting-since-the-last-reported-300-Eldest-Son-incident/5-2722208/
How about an AR15 upper with a gas cutout on the gas block and a side charging handle to use as a sight pull with the gas cut off? Not the fastest but gives you sami auto and bolt action like use at the same time.
As for .308 how about a .32 ACP Cartridge Adapter?
https://masondixontactical.wordpress.com/2019/10/22/adapting-to-survive-firearms-part-1-the-308-winchester-to-32acp-cartridge-adapter/
I’ve been hunting down a threaded, break action, threaded barrel CVA scout pistol in .300 blackout or biting the bullet and comitting to a .300 blackout “elf owl” or similar build for a bolt action pistol.
In a perfect world I’d love to have the cash to build my perfect integreally supressed barrel or buy one for the elf owl build. Oh well gives me more time to imagine one up.
Hmmm….Savage used to make a bolt action pistol as did Remington. Perhaps find one on GunBroker and rebarrel?
https://savagearms.com/content?a=product_summary&p=firearms&s=57797