56 thoughts on “Food for thought”

  1. Yes. A meme that very descriptively depicts a difference in gear “values”. If your an “agency” beard boy operator with .gov budgets to pay for that uber elite weapon system it will be the right side column. It will match those dorky thin blue line patches and bumper stickers emblazoned everywhere by those hero, “I’m a sheepdog” for society mentality types. If your are not a yuppie survivalist, hiring consultants to plan and equip your new redoubt retreat compound, then left column is for the rest of you little people. Honestly, spicy times will need a lot of that other kit that can be obtained in the left column’s “value flow chart”. Being able to drive any rifle with martial competency is more important than just possessing said implement. All spicy events need logistics to support those attendees, just seconds or minutes after first contact, you’ll be glad your value based decisions got you as much gear as possible. The PSA will certainly have a longer lifespan than most combatants anyway. Battlefields of the world, right now, are getting wrecked and littered with uber weapons systems that did not save those guys asses, so the real laws of averages are displayed. Max out your gear so as to stay frosty.

  2. Interesting but I’m concerned about the folks with all that gear and at best 2 weeks food.

    Hungry folks forget their grand morals as history points out often enough.

    The rule of threes doesn’t figure you can shoot a couple of cans of Spaghetti-O’s for your hungry family.

    Buy food, it’s cheaper than being killed for robbing folks. That gut wound just below your fancy plates with a rusty 22 will do the deed.

    • That is something that I just don’t understand. All these cool chest rig plates, yet your entire abdominal region is exposed. I added a abdominal pouch to mine a long time ago, now I’m starting to see people adding a ‘admin pouch’ to that area and stuffing it with a 3a soft insert.

      • Pretty hard to hike any real distance with that abdominal armor, very hard to sit in a vehicle.

        The history of personal armor is a long one and efforts to protect the belly has been less than successful.

        Personally, I wish a tactical shield wasn’t so silly expensive. UHDP used for plates that float would make an awesome shield.

      • You will most likely survive (a while) with a round to the gut.

        You will not survive very long at all, with a round to your heart or to the great vessels above the heart. That’s why armor should be worn high up on your chest.

        Now without access to at least second world medical care, it’s rather moot: But at least you will have the chance to take more with you.

  5. This is like the timex v Rolex analogy that I use. Timex- $20 tells time, Rolex $12,000 tells time. Hmmmmm

    • In addition to telling time, the Rolex advertizes who to rob and possibly some insecurity issues.

      • Probably like saying save your copper pennies and nickels, rather than gold and silver. That Rolex will feed your family a lot longer in a personal crisis than the Timex will if you had to pawn it. Then again, the guy who’s probably rocking a Rolex, can probably afford both sides of the list including some dual tubes gen 3 NVDs in WP to boot. The only thing I do not have on that list that are already a higher quality are the gummy worms, I am more a sour gummy bears person.

      • A extremely accurate chronograph is essential when doing sun and star sight calculations with a sextant. With some practice you can locate your position within a few miles, without good timekeeping it quickly widens to scores or hundreds of miles of error. This is one of the reasons the age of discovery happened after the invention of accurate timekeeping.

        • My jeweler told me that if having a watch that is the most accurate is important to you, then buy a quartz movement watch.
          If impressing your friends is the most important thing, then buy a Rolex.

          • Your run of the mill Rolex won’t impress many people, especially watch people. All the rest will assume it’s a replica (fake) anyway.

            I have a short story though, I was in a jewelry store looking for a present for my wife, and the sales guy called me over to the counter to show me rolex watches. Told him I wasn’t interested (I like Omega anyway) and he shared a story… Guy come in, says he needs a Rolex. Which one? says sales guy. I don’t know or care. Company told me they wouldn’t send me to my overseas post unless I had a Rolex, so I’m here to buy one. …

            In some places having a Rolex is simply “ante” to be taken seriously. In many similar places a Rolex is as good as cash. It’s your “get me a seat on the last flight out” bribe. It’s your “these are not the droids you’re looking for” pass when you get stopped out in the bush. It’s your “hey, are you SURE you can’t let me and my associate across the border tonight, instead of waiting all day” gratuity…

            The guy’s oil industry employer was sending him into an area where everyone that’s anyone has a Rolex, and where it could save his life in an emergency.

            I thought it was a great story and not something I’d heard of before. As for marking you out as a target, my buddy got robbed of his Timex in a big city in South America. *A* watch is more than some people have, let alone a nice watch.

            n

  6. Quality trumps quantity in the area of firearms. While the PSA may perform the task, for a few $$$ more, the Colt 6920 is a tier 1 firearm built to the militaries TDP requirements.

  7. I can empathize with people who have really tight budgets and do the best they can. However let’s be honest there is usually some slack that can at least temporarily be tightened up in the budget. Smoking, drinking, eating out, etc are good places to look.

    At the same time often there are some really relevant tiers between ‘absolutely the cheapest AR pattern rifle possible” and “multiple mortgage payment priced Gucci gun.”

    To quote James Yeager “Poor folks don’t need cheap stuff, they need good stuff that is inexpensive.”

    In the several hundred dollar range both S&W and Rugers basic no frills offerings are solid guns that are consistently well reviewed. It will likely work great for everything a casual hobbyist needs.

    For around a grand to 1,200 you can get a Colt or BCM which is a legit quality go to war gun.

    The people who really perplex me are the ones who buy/ build like 3 shitty AR’s a year. For years. Cuz instead of having a closet with several shitty rifles you could easily have 2 actual good ones.

    • And then you fall into the rabbit hole of arguing with people about which vendor is ‘Tier One’ and which one is ‘Poverty Level’. I’m sure someone on Youtube has done a couple shoot-till-it-breaks tests on the various AR’s and can dispel if the low(er)-end stuff has any merit. I own PSA, Colt, Bushmaster, Stag, Ruger, and Aero…Never really had a problem with any of them, but when it’s time to run out the door I’d probably grab the Colt just for the imagined confidence in the brand. Might need to get an FN, though.

      • concur, the army’s fn m4s are the tops of all the different contractors i’ve worked on since 1981. new colts are crap in my experience. if i could find an older colt i’d be all over it. my psa’s have thousands of rounds, no issues. will outlive me in a fight. plus i have extras to give to my “friends”.

  8. What a very powerful meme.

    I have expensive ARs. I have cheap ARs. One of the ARs (a homebuilt, on an Aero lower) needed a little tweaking to work correctly – but it cost me less than $500 all done and now is just as reliable and accurate as my ‘expensive) (Daniel Defense, Colt) ARs

  9. I’ve found the difference isn’t how well they run after they’re unboxed or assembled on the workbench. The actual difference is how long they last.

    Sub-10k rounds, they’re all about the same.

    Take a few classes, plink casually one weekend a month, maybe a comp or two a year, you’re at 10k in under 2 years. That’s where we see separation between quality components and just plain junk.

    Quality can certainly be built for a significant savings. Just don’t scrimp on the components.

    • I’ve seen some that don’t work well out of the box; I disagree on all being the same.
      One locked up so bad I had to take the upper off and apart to get the case out.
      I tried 6 brands and only one fed 50% of the time…

      • My home built Aero lower has more than 10k rounds through it.

        All stoppages have been mag-related.

        I did replace the springs and extractor after 5k rounds

        • Thank you for bringing up a HUGE point. Having replacement parts is as important as having your 3rd AR in the safe.

          Folks need to look at how tiny those parts are. They all wear out. Some sooner than others. Having replacement parts as a prep is money on the bank.

  10. In my experience, above a certain pretty low level they all work the same. I assume there is an upper level where differences show up, as mentioned above, but I haven’t gotten there.
    I’ve seen significant problems with reliability on both ATI Milsport and Radical RF 15 guns; otherwise they’ve all fed whatever I put in.
    I’m in the reasonable camp, not the high end one.
    I would suggest a couple reasonable guns in case something happens to the first or if you need to equip friends.

  11. By now someone here should have posted that the PSA has ammo but no magazines.
    I’d also like to add they don’t come with a rear sight.

    • Put a Trijicon ACOG on it and you’ll never have to worry about sights. If one decides to get some cheap chinesium glass, then by all means put some iron sights on it.

        • As long as it goes bang when it’s supposed to the gun’s value is priceless, and if the optic costs more than the rifle, so what.
          To me, though, I know what I have done to optics through general carelessness and bad luck/decision-making. Keeping spare ACOGs isn’t in my budget, and I’m not providing that level of equipment to random friends who are AR-deficient.

          • If you can afford a $1200 dollar optic, then you can probably afford a better rifle under it. A rifle going bang is just part of it. If you are ok with a rifle to maybe has an 8 MOA or higher at 100 to 200 meters, so be it. I am not in that camp of thought. You pay for what you get and most of the higher end rifles get 1 MOA or under at those ranges.

        • Funny how things work. A basic AR generally works about as well as an average AR. Not much worse than a high end AR. Invest in the optic that helps you hit targets.

  12. Over the years I have done a lot of work on AR-pattern rifles. Military unit armorer and some time doing depot-level work, armorer (additional duty) for a police agency, building and fixing personal rifles for soldiers and cops…

    There is very little difference between different brands of lowers (and GI-pattern uppers for that matter). Buy a forged ‘Mil Spec’ (even if no semiauto AR lower is ‘Mil Spec’) lower and you will not see any difference in performance or reliability or longevity. The only real difference between a Colt or LMT or FN lower and an Anderson ‘poverty pony’ — besides the price tag — is the manufacturers’ roll-mark on the side. If the Anderson’s slightly shorter threading for the pistol grip screw is an issue, that can be fixed in about 10 seconds with a cheap tap from the hardware store.

    Likewise the upper: ‘Mil Spec’ machined from a forging. Skip the pricey ‘billet’ parts as they are not actual improvements on the basic ‘Mil Spec’ design and billet parts are usually made of weaker and less wear-resistant alloys to make machining easier.

    Where you will see actual differences is in the quality of barrels, bolt carrier groups and the hammer/trigger/sear group. Steer clear of places like Nesard/Sendra (they’re thankfully gone but others of that ilk like Model 1 Sales remain).

    For HTS parts? There are quality ones, and then there are cheaply-made castings with low-quality machining. Stick with quality here. ALG makes a very good HTS set at a reasonable price. I personally will not use any HTS that wasn’t made by Schmid Tool & Engineering — easy to recognize as they have an ‘S” stamped on the parts — as they are a recognized quality manufacturer (ALG and some other outfits use Schmid castings to make their boutique HTS parts). Cheap no-name HTS parts are prone to rapid wear leading to malfunctions — oft times dangerous ones. Spend a few extra dollars for good parts rather than the cheapest parts some random guy is selling at a gun show.

    Get a Schmid-made bolt catch while you’re at it. I’ve had to replace a number of gunshow-special catches due to the rear of the catch being battered and gouged by the bolt. The finest Chinesium steel no doubt.

    Barrels? Not a guarantee of quality, but I’ve yet to encounter a truly lousy chrome-lined barrel. There are multiple sources for GI pattern barrels — Colt, FN (PSA stocks them). Windham, DSA — the only truly crap chrome-lined barrel I’ve come across in years of assembling and fixing ARs was an old Bushmaster-marked barrel that appears to have been sold as scrap to some bottom-tier gunshow dealer. The barrel extension pin was a spring pin, gas port was badly drilled, front sight assembly was held on by spring pins rather than taper pins, etc, Nothing but extraction problems, chambering problems… Finally talked the owner into buying a decent barrel and that solved all of the issues.

    BCGs are another place where it’s false economy to save a few pennies or buy some miracle gimmick set of parts. Basic ‘Mil Spec’ BCG but with some traceability and testing of the parts: a known alloy (Carpenter 158) bolt, with high pressure (proof) testing and magnetic particle examination to identify any defects post-proofing. Plain old boring Stoner-designed gas rings. A competently done staking job on the gas key. Pay for quality metal working rather than for the latest miracle coating or fancy engraving or ‘low mass carrier’ holes, etc.

    Don’t go overboard on things like charging handles or receiver extensions either. Plain old ‘Mil Spec’ is fine — just be sure you’re getting one that actually meets the basics of the Mil Spec, starting with the use of 7075T6 alloy rather than 6061. I’ve encountered two broken CHs over the years and both were no-name ‘I bought it at a gun show’-grade junk. The same holds true for the receiver extension: 6061 is weaker and much more likely to fail in use, and 7075T6 ones cost only a few dollars more.

    The various other small parts are unlikely to be problematic. Some parts will wear — takedown pin detents for example — no matter who makes them. But probably not a problem outside of 40-year-old military rifles.

  13. As Stalin said, “Quantity has a quality all its own.” For the price of a Daniels Defense rifle, for example, you can buy three or four budget ARs for the family.

    Of course, if those ARs are crap, it is a false economy. Yet, I have seen numerous YouTube videos that match so-called budget AR like the PSA against a top tier ARs. Every last one of them involved an attitude at the beginning with the YouTuber looking down his nose dismissively at the budget AR. The funny thing is that at the end of the test, the YouTuber ends with a sheepish, apologetic view about the budget AR: “Not bad.”

    If heading for the Middle East with a government contract is involved, I certainly get the snobbish approach about budget ARs. IMHO, if defending your homestead, hearth, and home after a societal meltdown is the objective, it is far better for you to have several rifles in the hands of friends and family than one top tier firearm the bad guys will “ooh” and “ahh” over after they pick it up from “your cold dead fingers.”
    Beyond all of that, if everyone in a group is seen walking around with a black rifle slung from the back or shoulder, the situation may never come to the point where shots are fired in anger in the first place. Not being the low-hanging fruit also has a quality all its own.

  14. I believe that Zero you have commented several times that a survivalist/ prepper is far more likely to need food, money, med supplies, heating capabilities ,etc than he/she will need a Colt6920/DDM4/Knights Armament AR-15 rifle.

    The notion that you will have to fight daily with your MSR is fanciful in all but a walking dead /28 weeks later type of SHTF event. If money is tight the PSA AR is more than fine. Get all the other stuff with the saved money. You can’t eat ammo ( not saying you don’t need guns/ammo; I have way more of both than anybody except Zero has haha) .

  15. I reposted the meme and someone pointed out that the PSA guy didn’t have any spare mags.

    Whoops.

    • The PA108 “Fat .50” ammo cans used for linked 5.56mm will hold thirty 30-round GI magazines. Air and water-tight, very crush-resistant. Light enough to move easily. Toss in a desiccant packet just to be sure and you have a long-term storage kit for one or two ARs’ worth of magazines.

      D&H 30 round magazines are running between $7 (advertised but out of stock) and $11 (in stock, at the very reputable Bravo Company). Very good quality magazines at a very good price. “Buy cheap and stack deep” as the old saying holds.

      I feel very comfortable if I have a PA108 full of magazines per rifle, and a case of 5.56mm (GI-packed 1680 rounds in two M2A1 .50 ammo cans or 2000 rounds “bulk-packed” as 500 rounds in a large ziplock freezer bag per M19A1 .30 ammo can) per each rifle in storage. That’s “deep storage” / “war reserve” that is never touched except to check for deterioration and to rotate new ammunition in as stored ammunition gets on in years.

      Plus more 5.56mm as it becomes available at decent prices to deepen the stockpile, and “less than go-to-war grade” or rotated-out older ammunition for training.

    • Thanks, I bought a box of 100 magpul mags along with a drum of 5.56. I’m good. Although if another drum ever came back into stock…

        • Well, when the PTR was the go-to I bought a case of new in the wrapper aluminum G3 mags for under $1 each – the case was 300.

          Now if I can find .308 mags from Magpul cheap

  17. Lets leave any gun snobbery for the forums.
    For 99% of American’s that aren’t rich or on govt contracts. The PSA 15 list is the best choice for defense because you get the most for the least.
    Find yourself a volunteer. Shoot him in left shoulder with Knight 15, shoot him in right shoulder with PSA 15 and ask him which hurt most or killed him faster….
    Don’t forget we have had our asses kicked for the past 23 years by illiterate goat herders using 60+ year old AK’s, 1943 German army light machine guns, 100 year old Enfields and Mosin nagants! The oldest I ever saw on a after action report was a 1893 Enfield used by a taliban sniper. A lot of highly trained and well equipped American military have been killed and wounded by these decrepit, ancient and CHEAP weapons.

    • Most of our dead and wounded in both Iraq and Afghanistan were hit with IEDS, not bullets.

      There’s a place in the preps closet for cheap armor and helmets of the PASGT sort that provide maximum body coverage even if the armor won’t stop a bullet. Even if you’re rarely travelling off-site from your home/neighborhood, and thus presumably at minimal risk from roadside IEDs, there are still cheap simple low-tech things like hand-thrown pipe-bombs that an attacker can build and use. And with the concept of suicide drones becoming widely known, it’s becoming easier every day to deliver an explosive surprise. Hobbyist-grade drones can’t cheaply deliver a hand grenade or mortar shell sized IED yet, but an RC toy car can carry a respectable payload.

      The Army had an over-the-PASGT-vest plate carrier for a while, to add a ballistic plate front and rear. A home made version of that carrier would be cheap and simple to fabricate, or just use one of the bare-bones commercial plate carriers.

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