From what I read, a ‘tiny house’ does not usually exceed about 400-500 sq ft. I was in a cottage this weekend that might be considered a ‘tiny house’. I was so curious, in fact, I measured the thing out. The main room was 14×17, which translates to around 238 sq. ft. But, it also had an upstairs loft with the same footprint ( although the sloping sides of the ceiling limited the amount of usable space.) To my surprise….it was quite livable. It had most of the amenities…real toilet, real shower, etc. Deficiencies were that there was no room in the bathroom for a sink, so the ‘kitchen’ sink doubled as a bathroom sink. But otherwise….surprisingly livalble for one person.
I wouldn’t want to live there for five years, but as a weekend or vacation kind of refuge it would be rather nice. What really caught my attention was that if I wanted a small, unnoticed, little ‘lifeboat’ to retreat to if I had to beat feet somewhere, it would actually be a very serviceable situation.
Of course, I’d deck it out in a more survivalist theme….heavy on storage options and off-grid resources. But I could very much see a smallish place like that working out quite well for a backup location.
As I said, it had an upstairs sleeping loft but it had no basement. If it had a basement, that would probably have made it pretty much ideal….plenty of storage while still maintaining a fairly small footprint.
At some point, I’m going to get my 20-40 acres of Montana and when I do, a small, well-equipped and well-appointed place like that might be just the thing while I set aside the greenbacks to build a more substantial palace at a later date.
It was interesting to look at such a small place with a survivalist’s critical eye and think ‘how could I better make this place fit my needs’.
Now, I will say that, as I see it, this was a tiny house but not a ‘Tiny House’ if you get my understanding. This was a stick-built-on-a-foundation sort of building (albeit looking like a gingerbread cottage) rather than the tiny-house-on-wheels that most tiny houses seem to be. And this had genuine grid power and water/sewage. No composting toilets, no water tanks. Real deal house. And the whole thing could have fit into the living room of my present day house.
Not my first choice of a place to live, but if I needed to go to a secondary location and spend a winter there or however much time until things calmed down, or I got back on my feet….well…it would actually be pretty nice.
So, maybe I’ll do some research and draw up some ideas for that day I finally get that acreage in the Middle O’ Nowhere.
Typically, most Tiny Houses are built on trailer decks, because merely by the virtue of being on wheels, they belong to the motor vehicle code, and thus escape the onerous and generally retarded building codes that prevent erecting small but sensible and livable homes of well under 1000 ft² on urban, suburban, and even rural lots.
Thoreau’s Walden cabin would probably be illegal in every county in Massholia, currently, as well as more than 50% of the rest of the country.
It had a subterranean root cellar/basement, attic space, and featured outdoor plumbing, but the structure itself was a humble 10’x15′, and Thoreau lived there in simple comfort for over 26 months.
Where building codes prevent idiots from setting themselves on fire via Turd World electrical builds, or from falling over and killing all within, one can see the point.
But telling you your house must be 1200, 1500, or more ft² is simply asinine governmental busybodies nanny-stating their retardation for generations.
Thus, the first step in a Tiny House plan is to be beyond the reach of such idiots and such jackassical code specs, by hook or by crook.
It’s easy to romanticize the retreat/back-up location as something from a favorite survivalist novel, but just like that generator, it needs ongoing maintenance to be in good working order. Smaller can make upkeep easier. I can fit all my wants and needs into a 12×24 space with a solid storage shed. I have no aspirations beyond that because then it becomes a part time job.
A ranch property we visit has a two car aluminum carport (approx. 25′ x 15′) with an elevated sleep platform about 10′ square of floor space. The sides are hinged to open up for summer cooling. The bottom of the platform is high enough to back a truck bed under for easy loading / unloading. The peak of this is about 5′ tall (to accommodate truck bed under passage). A pair of gutted box springs that allow a foam cushion to be installed on top to sleep. Very comfortable.
An outhouse / shower enclosure for privacy. Picnic table for food prep, with nearby fire ring when outdoor bar-b-que and warming fire in winter. Nothing fancy – the bare necessities.
Basically a permanent tent underneath overhead cover from sun and rain fall. Not the Taj Mahal but nothing much to rob either. It is about three quarters of a mile to the nearest paved road. Cannot be seen from there, a thick screen of brush conceals its existence. Not from Google Earth though – that is Eye of Sauron.
Logical indeed. These are in use as a s.o.p. type of house for folks, single workers always away or senior citizens camping down as cheaply as possible on their stipends. They are quick installs and can be kept portable if needed, smart there. When you infer towards your goal of acreage estanchia aquisitions, study the tax codes assessed on sizes of buildings and land or lot size taxation on similar examples. The amounts always go up and can be shockingly fast increases due to “area comps” formulas the tax assessors use. A super small olden days type of farm house just to dwell in, and an “unfinished” lower taxed shop or outbuilding for the real tomfoolery events would be good strategy. My town zoning approves these as normal, and they look better than the existing 50 year old trailer park packed hoovervilles already there. New normal and the way of the future. Stay frosty.
These are actually not suitable for most seniors, as mobility issues make that climb to the second floor loft impossible.
But, as they may be what is available, it would be a good idea for many seniors and the mobility challenged to get in shape.
Or die.
the problem is that the cost of the shell is small in comparison to the cost of those systems: electrical, plumbing, heating/cooling etc. the cost of a tiny/small house is very close to the cost of a “normal” house for that reason. you’re not saving much but giving up long term livability.
After dealing with the ongoing maintenance of an inexpensive (compared to top-of-the-line) composting toilet, I much prefer modern plumbing. A good outhouse is an excellent back-up. When only a few people are using the outhouse (as opposed to the hundreds who use the outhouses at parks, etc), it doesn’t smell bad at all. Of course, we do live in a dry climate, which helps.
Ii understand that when the apocalypse gets here there are going to have to be certain compromises in regards to creature comforts and lifestyle. However, I am going to do everything in my power to develop a system where I’m not crapping in some sort of human litter box, or using an outhouse at -15 degrees. I will if I have to, of course, but I’m going to spend the money to do my best to avoid that scenario. I don’t mind living by kerosene lamp light, eating freeze drieds, listening to a windup radio, or walking everywhere….but I am bloody well not going to go quietly into a life of Third World toiletry.
I’ve had the same thoughts, CZ, so what’s your current plan for waste of the human sort?
As I said, in a perfect world a normal flush toilet. Lacking municipal sewage thats going to mean a septic tank and leach field, I would imagine. I’ve seen people build their own on YouTube but I’d need to research it quite a bit more. Between a composting toilet and and outhouse, I think I’d probably just rather go with the well-insulated and well-built outhouse. But my main goal is going to be honest-to-Crom flush toilet. I don’t mind riding out the apocalypse squatting over a hole dug with an entrenching tool, but why if I dont have to?
I was state licenced when I was in that “field” and a septic system can be relatively compact and simple but the engineering must be right with soil perk,tankage,line length, water use,frost line all factored properly and maintenance is a must(smaller/more often). Try getting a vac truck to come out to your remote,dirt trail,100 mile from nowhere site for biannual,annual pumping or think about “honey dipping’yourself and compost toilets really might be a option compared to a -40 outhouse in the middle of a blizzard. You will still need a”greywater” system for kitchen,shower etc but much easier,simpler and much less maintenance.
It would be awesome to somehow discretely set up a cargo containerized “small home” in the middle of a rural nowhere. I’m picturing something well-sealed and weatherized so that it could sit untended for years or even decades, and also camoflague it so that would escape detection or location by anyone who didn’t have its exact lat and long coordinates and the ability to approach on foot. It could be set up with all the tools and supplies necessary to help sustain life comfortably for an extended stay.
I’m picturing the national news reporting for weeks about how the “search continues” for wanted suspect of…. and then they eventually give up and stop covering the story because its just making the Feds look bad.
That actually happened with the ‘Four Corners Survivalists’ about twenty years ago. After a couple shootouts they disappeared into the desert and law enforcement made a huge search, finding all sorts of weirdness including a hidden bunker, but never found the guys. Years and years later their skeletal remains were found, but it was by hunters and hikers rather than the cops.
For less than you’d spend on a cargo container and upgrades to achieve habitability, you could simply build out of concrete with rebar and cinder block walls, and by earth-sheltering, achieve proof against everything from bullets to brushfires to ballistic missiles.
After looking at doing it both ways, cargo containers make about as much sense to me as buying a refrigerator just to be able to live inside the box it came in.
There is one things they’re good for:
weld boxcar truck assemblies under one, fill it with concrete, and make one into a bermed-over rolling front gate barrier.
Ain’t anything up to and including Abrams MBTs that’ll punch through that with any speed.
For any other purpose, they’re just a giant flag visible from space, showing everyone who wants to look exactly where you are, esconced behind 14 gauge steel 75/1000ths of an inch thick.
Spam in a can.
Have also been looking at “built” vs container and factor in building codes,material costs ,labor( you going to exavate, frame, reinforce,pour, finish 20-50 yd concrete or lay 1000+ cinder blocks?) and utilities hvac/plumbing/electric? A container may look more appealing plus properly fitted could be far more comfortable plus the added bonus of portability( A-holes enter your AO, .gov, economic blight or a little piece of paradise opens up and a few hours later you are on your way anywhere on earth). Could even be moved by a duallie pick up with gooseneck trailer. Have been researching for hurricane hideout for coastal living. I could easily build out one in my back drive with a welder,grinder,saw and hand tools in a week or two.
Have you priced materials lately? Don’t forget the building codes,labor( you going to excavate,frame,set utilities, reinforce,pour, finish,20-50 yd concrete,set 1000+ cinder blocks,plumbing,hvac, electric, roofing,finish carpentry?). I could drop a 20′ ocean can in my back driveway and with a welder,grinder,handtools build a nicely appointed.comfortable abode in two weeks at a fraction of the cost. Portability is another factor A-holes in your AO,.gov , economic factors or a little piece of paradise opens up and in a few hours your gone. Could even be moved by duallie pickup with gooseneck trailer or shipped anywhere on earth. Have been researching for a hurricane hideout for coastal living-as weather,bug,disaster proof as could be it is made for the open ocean,close the doors and it’s sealed. It is also a modular design with built in stackability. As far as using as a barrier filled with concrete, how would you move it? Spare spotting locomotives aren’t cheap,easy to buy,transport,set up, maintain, lot of work to go to for ice cream or monthly resupply
As far as observability,what is more ubiquitous than shipping containers? Where are they not anywhere on earth? In my area they are used for storage and satellite can’t tell if it is for storage,living or just abandoned or overhead camouflage exists
I suggest you research harder, as to bury a conex to any good use you need to add about a half to a full ton of steel reinforcement to prevent implosion from soil pressure, then have to completely waterproof-coat all six sides to prevent it corroding in place. You only get one chance to do those right, or you’ve wasted all your time, money, and effort. And you’re
People who half-@$$ it get to repent at leisure as they end up with a rusted sinkhole that will never work as intended.
By the time you’re done, pouring a pad and foundations, tying rebar, and laying blocks looks like child’s play.
Especially if you’re doing it DIY.
I’m finicky, but if it’s me, I’d rather sling 10# cinder blocks a couple thousand times, than try moving box or angle iron and weld it into place, working without a crew, and still have to do all the other work.
If you can get it done your way for less money, by all means do so. I think that prospect is dubious, but I’m not shopping in your neighborhood. All I’m saying is work out the real costs both ways.
I have, and conex boxes come in a distant second place, and I’m a few miles from the biggest repositories of orphaned conex boxes in the western world.
And the electric, plumbing, HVAC, are the same for both options, so that argument doesn’t apply.
And if anyone’s looking at building codes being an issue, they’ve already lost the battle.
If you think you’re going to move right into a 20′ box, best wishes with that pipe dream.
You want to see what even above-ground conex conversion is like, catch
https://www.youtube.com/@life.uncontained/videos
They spent four years turning two 40-footers with a conventional center section into a livable off-grid house.
At the end of the day, they could have gone to Home Depot or Lowe’s, bought lumber, and had what they got from the containers, but built it in about 3-4 days themselves, using simple hand and power tools, and saved themselves literally years of time trying to turn a metal shipping container into a house.
That’s quite simply retarded, IMHO.
They’re cute, young, and stupid, and it’s fun to watch, but only because it’s not my back doing the lifting, nor my wallet paying the freight.
I’ve built livable stick-built structures with nothing but a power drill and hammer in hours.
All you get from a conex box in that time is a metal tent, that’s stop bugs, raccoons, and maybe rain.
As for using it as a barrier, I specified putting it on bogies.
Moving heavy things on rails isn’t that hard, and doesn’t require a locomotive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMpwaZ6_Od8
Imagine how easy it is if you use a very small high-torque engine or winch, let alone using the 17th-century technology of a block and tackle. This isn’t rocket surgery.
Visibility refers to the fact that it exists at all.
If you figure someone’s going to see your conex sitting there, perhaps amidst 10 or 20 others, and assume it’s not worth their time, great.
I assume neither individuals nor governments are so altruistic or apathetic, so I’d prefer something you couldn’t see at all, even while you were standing on it.
Which, I thought, was kind of the whole point.
So presuming you had access to a clean and intact one(s), where you do you stand on container housing?
It might be a bear to get a 30-footer or 40-footer up to where you want it to be, but a series of 20-footers might be possible.
My only interest in a container for housing would be to use it as the center of a ‘form’ for pouring concrete. That is to say, I’d park the container on a slab, build some plywood walls about a foot off each side of the things and fill with concrete, same over the top.
I do like the idea of a cargo container sunk into a hillside for storage though. But as a living environment I think that by the time you do all the insulation and other stuff you’ll have done about the same work as constructing a regular building.
‘zackly.
Not even close,start with a food grade insulated can or insulate a normal can and the build out would be done before you could pour and finish a slab,much less a basement. Check out the guy who builds out cans to spec for remote work sites in Canada/Alaska. He even sells kits to splice cans together and how they can be used in very harsh environments.Video of a Sea Captain who built a very nice can home that he ships to every new home port he works out of gives you a clue that can be done.
Ocean containers come in 20’+40′ sizes with a myriad of configurations from flat decks,post,open top,double end opening.insulated,freezer,to common single end opening high and low cube(roof height). Domestic train containers come in more sizes up to 53′ fewer options but not shipable worldwide.
I found that a travel trailer seems to be more for the price than a tiny home. It has all the amenities and made for the road. Completely self contained and can be used at 1000’s of parks, or just park it on a nice pad somewhere and move in.
I like this idea. Been looking for one lately and there are some very nice ones for under $20k.
It depends on what you intend to do with it. In my experience, travel trailers typically aren’t their best in cold climates. But if you want a home that can easily travel, you are right, a travel trailer is probably the best option. Also zoning codes are a consideration in some areas. Some places won’t allow you to live full-time in a travel trailer.
Look at how those trailers are constructed,thin plywood with a aluminum or fiberglass skin. Just repaired one in our shop and coworker couldn’t believe how cheaply made it was, especially for the price(80k+). Know guy who is refitting a celebrities old tour bus built out of a greyhound bus,built like a tank multiple millions of miles but ready for millions more(as long as parts are available and skilled mechanics for service) find a commercial based unit not recreational differences are incredible. For minimal bug out refurbished old pop up might be the CHEAP(free for hauling), easy rebuild with towing by almost any vehicle. Trailers are mostly built to sit in driveways and rot till payments are finished.
A local developer has been getting pre-built Amish cabins from somewhere in MT. They truck them in and slide onto a concrete basement foundation. All done in a few hours from what I understand. Built for Teton winters at 6200′.
Id be interested in learning more about that.
I’ll see what details I can round up.
Dear CZ: in the event that you *do* learn more of the Amish-cabin-on-basement-foundation arrangement, pray thee, do share with the rest of us, please?
Tenkewberramuch.
Dropping in a septic tank and well are probably great starting points no matter what the end square footage comes out to. One big room and a bath would sustain you until you tie the rest of the sorority house into it and then convert the room back to a library or something.
We have done 6 of these in two years . From one on a trailer 330’ square to 700 sq foot two
Stories .
Ours were actual houses set on foundations except the first one .
We sold them significantly higher than the “converted shed “ guys do .
If you do it all yourself you can have a lot of quality and space for 50 to 60k.
IF YOU DO IT YOURSELF . Is the key phrase .
We have since started building on land for tax reasons .
There are lots of shortfalls to a 4” wall
Shed built to look like a house . Thus the reason doing it correctly was so profitable .
Link to more information
RE: Small, sem-hidden retreat –
Factory-built walls trucked in and craned into place on a poured crawl space foundation; instead of the CS having bare dirt, pour a slab. Floor hatch provides access to the CS storage.
Whatever you think your “enough to get by” space needs are, increase it by 25%, it’s cheaper to build larger than retrofit later and will substantially reduce your frustration as “I wish I had made this room 2 feet wider….”
If you ever build a larger “real house” use the small one as a guest cottage.
There are some toilet designs that have a sink with faucet in the tank lid (in porcelain, not prison stainless steel) that take care of the sink issue…
One thing to keep in mind about the “Bury a Cargo Container” is that while they are rated to support Hundreds of Tons Stacking Load, that is ONLY on the Corners… The Roof and Sides are Not able to support the Loads imposed by Earth Backfill. Another thing to consider is that ones with Wood Decking are heavily treated with Toxic Pesticides- a Requirement for International Shipping. Using one of them for Living Space requires the Treated Wood to be removed.
As far as “Building Out” one (or several) as a House, it’s easy enough; plenty of Websites out there showing what people have done.
But the most Important ‘Utilities’ for a Remote Location are Water and Sanitation- without those, you are not going to last long.
Good thing about removing the flooring is a container repair shop will buy the flooring for repairs $$. Rest of internal construction is welder/framing and removeable with grinder
Cabin company, it’s actually in Salmon, ID: https://cabinsplus.net/
I would love to hear more about the amish cabins also. You know CZ, you could get 40 or so acres with a few dozen friends like us and divide it up and create the free state utopia of CZ land. The fire power alone would put us in the top 10 military’s.
Just think of it, sitting in front of your bunker on top of a hill with your swedish bikini team hand maidens looking out over your very own country.
A pair of 20′ cargo containers connected with an overhead centered gable roof with underneath dog run would make a nice shop and/or carport after main house is built. A travel trailer in mean time could be backed in for more protection from elements and still be ready to haul off if vacation or BO is required.
Cabins or small homes bigger than tiny homes but smaller than todays conventional homes interest me a lot. A little 2 bedroom place in the 700-900sq ft arena makes a ton of sense for a single guy or a couple.