Run around the blogs often enough and you get to see the ‘survival guns on a budget’ posts that pop up from time to time. Usually the theme is that you don’t have to spend ‘leventybillion dollars on a ‘yuppie black rifle’ because for only $5.95 you can have a Mosin-Nagant rifle, a single shot 12 ga., and a TokaMakaBersarov pistol. And if you buy it used you’ll only pay $4.95 and have money left over for plenty of surplus ammo.
So…its 4am, the floodwaters are steadily rising, the radio says Katrina is the worst disaster in US history and you’re sitting on your porch keeping an eye open. Down the street you hear a car full of raucous ‘young men’ go by and the sounds of breaking glass and a dog barking. Yelling and shouting follow and then a gunshot or two. After about twenty minutes a car creeps down the street and four sets of eyes hungrily look at your house as they slowly cruise by.
Good time to have saved a few bucks, huh?
Dealer cost on a quality (not assembled on someones kitchen table) Ar-15 is $850. This means that a used one should be about the same price. Used Mossberg 500 shotguns can be had for $150 at a lot of pawn shops and gun shows. A used police trade-in Glock is $400. A trade-in police revolver is half that.
I can appreciate saving money, I’m pretty tight with a buck. But theres also some things that I grit my teeth and shell out the money for because sometimes you just can’t get away with Bob’s Budget Battle Rifles or Steve’s House of Discount Ballistic Nylon. Even the gets-no-respect $175 SKS is, in my opinion, a far better choice than a bolt-action shoulder-beater like the Mosin Nagant. “But my Mosin can shoot through a car from four miles away!”, says the diehard M-N fan. Terrific. And when you find three guys walking up your driveway with baseball bats and hammers you’re going to…get them to line up in a straight line? Bayonet them to death before they crack your skull like a walnut? Maybe you’ll get off a round from your bargain 12 ga. $89.95 H&R singleshot…that’s one down and two to…ouch, hey stop that! Maybe you can save the day with your Norinco TT-33 pistol assuming it works and doesn’t jam on every third round.
Some very simple math. Current federal minimum wage is about $6.55 an hour. This means there is no job you can legally have that will give you less than that. (Or, as one comedian opined, “Minimum wage is your bosses way of saying ‘Id pay you less if I could, but its against the law!”) Assume you lose 15% in taxes, your $6.65 is now about $5.60. Barely a combo meal at Wendy’s, but you’re not supposed to be supporting a family of four on it anyway. You would need about 160 hours to buy a basic quality AR-15. Wanna knock off from work early? Get an SKS for 35 hours. My point is that ‘I cant afford it’ isn’t a very good excuse for equipping yourself with less-than-ideal gear. If you can hurl a newspaper at a doorstep, wash dishes or stock shelves you can, in less than two months, have yourself a good semi-auto rifle, pistol and pump gun.
Is there a place in preparedness for ‘Deep Discount’ guns? Absolutely. They’re good for unexpected guests, as ‘last ditch’ guns far down the list of backups, probably a great choice for turning over to ‘the authorities’ so they don’t look too deep and find your FAL, and they are excellent ‘disposable’ guns for those places that are prone to break-ins and theft (vehicles, remote cabins, etc, etc). But if you had the choice, would they be your first pick if someone told you that tomorrow you’re going to have a home invasion?
If someone were to ask me what to buy, I’d tell them to get an AR or AK, a Rem 870 and a Glock in .40 or 9mm. Get the spare mags and accessories and you’d be better off than 95% of the population when the lights go off and the 911 operator says “you’re on your own”. To me, thats a reasonable setup on the average person’s budget. It represents about $1500. If you’re just not willing to spend the money then get an SKS, a Mossberg 500 and a quality .38/.357 double-action revolver (Ruger, Smith, Taurus, Colt)…thats about 1/3 the price of the previous package, but still a very good little bundle of firepower.
If you can’t afford better, than there is nothing wrong with getting yourself a Mosin Nagant, some cheapo break-open singleshot 12 ga. And a Makarov. But…if you can afford better but refuse to spend the money, then I think you may want to objectively revisit your rationale for those purchases.
A valid question here is “Why three guns? Wouldn’t I be served just fine with only a [pistol/carbine/shotgun]?” That is, I think, a valid question. My reasoning, and your mileage may vary, is that a pistol is great for when I have to be discreetly armed (like when the cops knock on the door, heading down to the Red Cross emergency communications center, when Im standing at the curb chatting with neighbors, etc) but it’s a poor choice for the 4am banging-on-the-door goofed-up gangbangers looking for fast and easy money. The AR or AK is a wonderful choice for that scenario. The shotgun..well, nothing says violent brutality and tell-the-ambulance-guys-they-wont-need-the-siren like a stubby 12 ga. It’s a good option for when the multiple attacker scenario moves in close. So..that’s why three guns – because one gun isn’t the best choice for every situation…I wish it was, it’d save me a lot of money. But the facts don’t bear it out.
Can you spend more? Sure. If you live in a world of ‘money is no object’ or your personal goals and ambitions put you above living in a van down by the river then by all means get yourself a DSA FAL, a Wilson/Scattergun Technologies shotgun and a couple of Glocks. More power to ya.
The bumper sticker saying is “First rule of a gunfight is: have a gun”. And certainly any gun is better than no gun when you have an unplanned violent encounter. However, I think preparing for such eventualities with an eye towards doing it as cheaply as possible seems like shopping for discount parachutes or ‘slightly irregular’ replacement heart valves. You don’t have to spend gobs of money, but you do have to spend some. Suck it up, spend the money, and be done with it so you can move on to other things like food, fuel, shelter, and the like.
14 responses so far ↓
1 BobG // Sep 3, 2008 at 10:23 am
“If you can’t afford better, than there is nothing wrong with getting yourself a Mosin Nagant, some cheapo break-open singleshot 12 ga. And a Makarov.”
I think you’d probably be better served by taking the money for the rifle and investing in a pump shotgun instead of the single shot. A couple of good handguns and a Mossberg 500 can do a lot of defending. It seems that in most cases, the reach of the rifle may not be that necessary, but having a repeating shotgun is always a good thing.
Just my opinion.
I agree. But theres always a constituency that feels that they can ‘git r done’ cheaper and cheaper.If they arent willing to spend the extra $100 and get an SKS then they probably arent willing to spend the $100 to upgrade from a singleshot to a pump.
2 JEL // Sep 3, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Mosins Nagant M91/30’s make great sniper weapons, often overlooked in the defensive battery.
3 OIF Vet. // Sep 3, 2008 at 3:35 pm
After I redeployed last fall, my first gun buy was a DPMS LR308 AP4, with the dealer options, mags, and ACOG scope, total cost was close to $3,000.00 bucks. This does not include the ammo I have purchased with it, and I don’t regret it a damn bit.
4 theotherryan // Sep 3, 2008 at 5:24 pm
I think there are some good points here. While it is hard to speak to all individual situations if you really want it delivering pizzas on Friday nights is a good way to get it. I think money should be allocated in the following order: rifle, pistol, shotgun. I think that because rifles have the biggest difference in performance of the 3. Unless you own and just love a 30-30 Winchester getting a reliable semi auto rifle is important. I put the pistol next because they tend to cost more then shotguns do. When it comes to shotguns get a reliable name brand (rem, moss, winch) pump gun. More is cool but not really needed. I probably have the biggest problem with this whole super cheap concept when it comes to the shotgun. A single shot h&r is a great game getter but one shot weapons are poor choices for defense. A pump shotgun beats anything from point blank to 30 meters.
At the same time some guns are far better then no guns. Getting a .38, a used mossberg pump and a Mosin Nagant now for a few hundred bucks is far better then having nothing. Later on you could get an AR nice handgun, and a new mossberg 590 when funds permit.
5 Costa Rica Jones // Sep 3, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Kudos. Good article.
I think that if you can’t figure out how to spend $200-$300 for a decent weapon, then you’re not serious about preparedness. You’re just playing mental masturbation games– the same games that the Mall Ninjas play, but on the other end of the teeter-totter.
On a related note: When we lived Costa Rica, all of the guards were armed with shotguns. 95% of them either Remington or Mossberg. All of them, pump action. Most of these were pretty beat up and used– but hey: If they can afford to give them to every-other 3rd World guard (and some had to buy their own) standing in front of a gas station or taco shack… then what’s your excuse?
In the upper-scale neighborhoods of Bogota, Colombia where we lived– most of the guards carried concealed .38’s. (Less of a need for the shotguns, as you have a soldier on practically every other corner, with a Galil.)
Just my .02.
6 j.r. guerra in s. tx. // Sep 4, 2008 at 11:00 am
I agree with the idea of the hideout being necessary – sometimes, you have to be able to appear to be unarmed in social situations and a basic .38 Special or .380 auto hideout just makes sense to me.
When I go on vacation, I often take a hideout, as well either a single shot 12 that takes down very compactly, or a Mossburg 20 gauge pump Camper. All of them for the hotel room or on the road security.
7 Jennersen // Sep 4, 2008 at 9:00 pm
I get asked about firearms by friends all the time. Keep in my I am still a university student (last year thank . . .) and talk about budget. Ja, I own some nice stuff, but I am willing to obtain it. I also do not schedule myself like mad, which many students do.
Anywhoo, I always tell them dump pumping cash into all your e-stuff and save a couple hundred and buy a 12 gauge pump and some 00 buckshot. If you are really stuck with having to buy just one for the time being, and live in a cityscape then a pump shotgun is your friend.
One friend followed my advice (Go Army!) he is in the army, and bought himself a AR-15. It took him a year but not wasting all his money on e-stuff. He helps to convert people with me, but anyway I know the advice mentioned in your entry and all does really truly work.
8 Sam // Sep 6, 2008 at 11:07 am
Thanks for your blog. You do make a difference.
Some day I will have guns like you suggest, you bet. When we started prepping we had very few prep type things; no guns, ammo or skills to speak of. We spent roughly $5,000 in our first months of prepping, that was all we could do then. We keep plugging away at it though. Now we have enough properly stored food, water supplies, evacuation gear, clothing, shelter, plus a place to retreat to (shared with others), transportation, communications, medical supplies, gardening supplies, and most other things my family will need… enough for 10 months without public utilities or going to a store.
None of us know what will happen for sure when the SHTF. What we do know is that we will need to eat and have shelter. So we took care of that. Of course we had to get weapons, ammo, and training. We started out with .22LR pistols and rifles to learn and train with. We could barely afford those at the time (with everything else we had to get), then we learned how much ammo one should have in their preps: a minimum of 5,000 rounds per weapon, per shooter.
After the SHTF no gun supplies will be available for a very long time (very likely), so 5,000 stored rounds makes sense. So does getting spare gun parts, magazines, cleaning supplies, gun tools, etc. This was relatively cheap for our four little 22s, just under $900. That was mostly for ammo (22,000 rounds), but almost $400 in mags, parts, gear and supplies too.
My point is that ammo is a huge expense in appropriate quantity and larger calibers. Budgeting for ammo is almost always overlooked when prep planning. At bulk prices today (9/6/8) these are the approximate costs of 4 calibers for comparison.
CALIBER 5,000 ROUNDS 20,000 ROUNDS
.308 – $2,800 $11,200
5.56/.223 - $1,125 $4,500
.40 S&W - $1,200 $4,800
.22LR - $124 $496
We will eventually get guns of these larger calibers (we have not settled on which rifle caliber yet), plus shotguns, after we have enough of the other stuff. In the meantime we are shooting nearly every weekend with our 22LRs and getting pretty good. Hey, for $13 per 500 rounds of 22LR, we can shoot a lot. And that is exactly what it takes to get really good, lots of practice.
By the first of the year [I hope] we will have all the food and gear we need to last a full year without public utilities or going to a store. Then we will start saving for our bigger guns, ammo, etc. In the meantime, we are becoming better shots with pistols and rifles in a number disciplines.
Since we started prepping, we’ve read several times that the 22LR may be the survival caliber of choice a year or two after TSHTF and the fighting subsides. Who knows for sure? They are quieter, ammo is light, they are fine for small game, and they are easy to fix. Plus, if everyone else is out of ammo, then the little 22LR would be king (sounds funny today!). Nearly everyone agrees that having a 22LR or two around is a good thing. BUT, enough ammo must be stored. I’m thinking maybe we should double the 22LR we have stored. For another $500 we would have 40,000 rounds. Hmmm…
Shooting practice makes a big difference. And at under 2 1/2 cents per round, we can shoot all we want. We are developing critical skills, sure enough.
No matter which guns we have, without enough of ammo (5,000+ per gun) to see us through SHTF, they won’t help. Without enough food and survival supplies, guns aren’t going to help much after SHTF (with 1,000,000+ new people trying to live off the land). Very few will have enough food and ammo stored. So even the spoils of war will not help much.
This is my take on a “Survival Battery Budget”.
Sam
9 Johnzilla // Sep 7, 2008 at 3:12 pm
I agree with this post 100%. It is very refreshing to see someone countering the ultra-low budget survival gun argument you see so many people yapping about.
In my mind, the number one criteria for a SHTF firearm is training. Number two is a support network. In other words, whatever you choose there should be an overwhelming base of parts, ammo, and other people using the same thing.
If you are looking to stay in a semi-urban area when TSHTF (and lets face it, some of us will have to for various reasons), the first firearm you should have is a simple, basic 12 ga. pump shotgun. This is the most general use firearm you could have, and you can have a high-quality Mossberg or Remington for under $300 easily, around $200 if you are patient.
If you have some land to worry about, a simple lever action rifle or bolt action rifle can be had for $300.
Then, if you still have some money, a .38/.357 revolver can be had quite cheap.
In my mind, unless you have a need for accurate shots past 150 yds., a .38/.357 revolver, 12 ga. shotgun, and a .38/.357 lever action is the best all around firearm setup. You have to worry only about 2 different calibers (3 if you want both .38/.357). Your rifle and revolver share. Everything is simple, easy to repair, and utterly reliable in just about any situation. You have solid defense from 0-150 yards as well as hunting options, and you will be able to find .38/.357 and 12 ga. ammo just about anywhere, anytime.
In my mind, when someone says “survival firearms on a budget” that’s what I think: revolver, pump shotgun, lever action rifle. Simple, easy to learn, easy to repair if needed, easy to fill with ammo and easy to find bargains if you are patient and shop around.
The whole “$50 50-yr. old milsurp” argument is bad advice, if you ask me. Do it and you’ll be all alone for ammo, for parts, and for repairs. Not the place you want to be when TSHTF.
10 Catman // Sep 7, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I’ve enjoyed your blog, and this is the first time I feel compelled to add a few words.
People, if you “can’t afford” first quality weapons, do as everyone here has advised. Buy at least a good quality pump shotgun. If you can, get two, especially if you have more than one person capable of wielding it in your household. This is especially important if you’re stuck in a structure. You’ll need someone to watch your six.
If you’re the only one who can wield a weapon, someone else can sure as hell reload while you fire.
BUY SNAP CAPS AND PRACTICE FIRING AND RELOADING IN THE DARK AND ON THE MOVE. This does not negate the need for range time, but it will help you navigate your home and understand available cover and vantage points. Keep the snaps separate from live ammo.
Like the author said, Mossberg 500s are around $150 used at gun shows and pawns. Give up the beer, soda and Starbucks, brown bag your lunch. You’d be surprised at how quickly you can scrounge up $150.00. Have a gunsmith inspect and repair, if needed, your purchase. Be polite and ask the smith if you can watch. There is nothing like learning from someone skilled. Most of the guys I’ve run across are happy to have someone show interest in their craft.
Get plenty of ammo, including slug loads. Learn which load is appropriate for each task. If you need to, spray paint the shells different colors to make identification of different loads easily identifiable. Use bright colors easy to see in dim lighting. You just need a touch of color, don’t get all fancy and pretend you’re painting a car.
Get a bandolier or two to keep your loads handy.
Get slings. The slings will help you retain control of your weapon if someone attempts to wrest if from your control.
Now we all could get in lots of trouble talking about various modifications to sabot rounds, but you should look into it. There are things you can do to make things interesting for the guy on the receiving end.
11 Jake 98c/11b // Sep 10, 2008 at 6:07 am
I am going to challenge some beliefs here but I don’t have much interest in the fighting shotgun at all. The liabilities are so great as to knock them out of the running entirely. About the only advantage with the shotgun is that you can buy a decent gun for not a lot of money.
I’m sure some people will argue that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread but an indepth look at the issue tells me otherwise.
Lets look at the facts. The shotgun has a very limited capacity. An 18 inch barreled, tube fed shotgun will have a capacity of only 7 rounds. That is only 7 chances to solve whatever problem it is that made you reach for the shotgun in the first place. The gun is larger and heavier than the carbine. As I recall the 18 inch full stock Remington 870 and the full sized AR15A2 only have about 1/2 inch difference in length. The AK and the M4 clone are much shorter and a bit lighter. They also have 30 chances to solve the problem before you have to reload. This brings up the reload speed and the complexity of reloading the shotgun under the stress of combat. I could explain this in great detail but I will make it quicker and simpler by relating to you an experience of a fellow soldier I served with in Iraq. He was a supervisor at a prison where he was also a firearms instructor. He was a former police officer who had a good bit of experience using the shotgun in a law enforcement environemnt and he was convinced it was the greatest fighting tool in existence. When we got some shotguns for breaching he had to have one and he carried it exclusively. Made sense to some, he had more time and training with the shotgun and he was a strong advocate so they allowed it. One day he got into a firefight where he realized the 6 rounds in the gun didn’t last all that long. When he went to reload it he ended up dropping most of the rounds on the ground and only got three rounds into the gun, the last one backwards tieing up the action. He finished up the fight in the fetal position behind megar cover screaming and crying. He finished the rotation in the supply room because he was still screwed up from his failings in the fight. And he was a trained and experienced instructor for the DOC.
Now is when I expect people to bring up the ‘versatility’ of the gun that comes through it’s vast array of loads. And I will say that I really don’t care. Most of those loads don’t have much utility in a fight and the truth is the greatest utility is in sporting activities. Survival is not sport. Shoot the gamebirds on the ground if you need to hunt for survival and use the .22lr, It is a better tool for the job. Did you know that many departments that have both lethal and less lethal rounds often mandate that an officer is only allowed to carry one type of rounds? They do this because they don’t want someone to inadvertently load the wrong type of round. I will also add that the less lethal gunners have more training than the less lethal because there are more limitations on their use.
Some will also say that the shotgun can have less penetration inside the home and there is some truth to that but the 5.56mm has a number of loads that will reliably fragment in building materials but they will also punch through soft body armor. Contrary to popular belief a couple loads of buckshot into the chest of a vest wearing attacker won’t reliably stop their agression. Check out the Second Chance Survivors Club for several examples.
The fighting shotgun is a budget tool at it’s best. You CAN buy a decent fighting shotgun for just a couple of hundred dollars but their weaknesses far outshine their strengths. If you are on a budget I would say skip the shotgun and put that money to a fighting handgun or rifle.
This is the short list of my objections and I could probably write an article on the subject (there is more) but I will leave you with this thought, why do you think the shotgun is the last firearm opressive governments take from their subjects? It is because they are the least effective fighting firearms.
You make some valid points. I think that there are certainly times and places where a shotgun is a poor choice for a primary weapon, but I also think there are times where its quite suitable. It does have some advantages, such as its ability to shoot less-lethal rounds, lock busting rounds, and such, but I dont think thats enough to make it a candidate for being a sole primary longarm. Despite its shortcomings, I would feel a little under-equipped if I didnt have at least on in the gun safe. In addition to the Glocks by the bedside we also keep a tricked out Rem 870 there as well and for some reason I feel thats a better choice for that duty than a stubby AR. But, were the horde of zombies coming down the street, I’d probably take the carbine over the pumpgun just for sheer numbers.
12 Johnzilla // Sep 11, 2008 at 3:58 pm
All of the objections to a shotgun assume one thing: a massive firefight against lots of bad guys.
Unless we’re talking Night of the Living Dead, the odds of Joe Homeowner getting caught up in a massive firefight against 10+ guys with assault rifles is just about nil, TEOTWAWKI or not.
Nobody is saying the shotgun beats all comers. But the point of survival is just that: survival. When TSHTF, rule number one is going to be avoiding firefights, not looking for them. Keeping ultra low profiles, not drawing attention. That’s rule number one, and if you’re lucky, you’ll never have to use your shotgun or any other gun and things will eventually get back to something like normal.
Most people don’t have posses, or squads, or platoons of dudes in excellent physical shape ready to smackdown all challengers. Most people in a survival situation are going to be working alone or with a few other people, and there’s a really good chance some of those people are going to be old and infirm or really young. So again, rule number one is going to be staying out of firefights.
But what you do want to do is demonstrate, if something happens, that you’re not a pushover and easy target.
The shotgun is by no means perfect, but there are all sorts of situations where the assault rifle sucks, too. For example, getting stopped by the police or military and they ask you what you’re doing. “Hunting,” you say, showing them your pump shotgun. That’s a lot better than saying “Waiting for some dudes to try something” while showing them your AR and 5 loaded mags. What if a ban shows up? The first weapons that will be banned will be ARs and AKs, you can bet on that. Would you rather drop $500 on a shotgun and be able to keep it or drop $1500 on a AR and have it confiscated?
13 Rick // Sep 13, 2008 at 6:38 am
First off some bona fides; I am a long serving police officer, weapons and tactics instructor and a former soldier. I have also been into preparedness for over 10 years.
Good post, by the way and some excellent comments. I would just like to emphasize a few things.
First of all, whatever you choose as a “survival battery,” you must train, train and train some more. Because how you react in a combat situation will be predicated on how you train. If you don’t realistically train with your chosen weapons, in a combat situation it won’t matter how high speed your arsenal is! You’ll probably die!!
When novices ask me about what they should consider for a shhtf scenario, I tell them to get a .22 rifle, cheap AK, a used 12 ga. pump and a 4″ .38 or two (one for the spouse). And the appropriate ammo and such to go with them. In other words, keep it simple.
More improtantly, I direct them to the appropriate training resources. After all, it doesn’t really matter what kind of weapon you have, as long as you can employ it effectively…
Rick
14 Jake 98c/11b // Sep 14, 2008 at 4:15 am
I will admit that my prejudices are based on 21 years of military service and I am currently working as a security contractor in Afghanistan so yes, I have a bias that I bring with me but I will stand by my earlier statement.
If you are dirt poor then the shotgun is probably a better choice but only because you can buy a good gun cheap. It does nothing better in a fight than does the rifle, preferably a military pattern autoloader. Outside of combat the only advantage of the shotgun is the sporting uses. Hunting for survival is not the same as wingshooting for sport. I feel the .22 rifle or pistol is better at harvesting game but trapping is better still (if you have a little experience).
When fighting, and it doesn’t matter if it is one or a dozen, the military pattern autoloading rifle is the most versatile long gun. I am not saying you should ignore the shotgun, only that if on a budget I would skip the shotgun entirely if it meant I could buy an AK. I am not an AK fan but if you are short on funds it is the way to go.
I still have shotguns, I even have AK pattern shotguns, but they are more for fun than for serious use.
I will back up Sam and Rick and say that training and the cost effectiveness of the .22 should not be overlooked.
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